North ToV

[Andaas]

Ok.. so you asked for my thoughts on North ToV and rotations, so here we go:

1. For the first month (October), a guilds rotation slot will consist of up to 7 consecutive days in North ToV. Leaving the North ToV area for 24 hours will be deemed as aborting an existing raid, and the remaining spawns will be up for grabs (the same guild can move back in if nobody else does of course). Beyond October, a guilds rotation slot will consist of 4 consecutive days - this is to incur some haste to the raid, while still allowing sufficient time for the guild to make some mistakes and still recover.

2. Killing Aaryonar is considered "breaking" the NToV area. I think before any guild ventures deeper into NToV, they should be required to prove themselves by taking Aaryonar out. Since Aaryonar is the first test of NToV, I think that if a guild cannot kill him by the end of the 2nd day of their raid, that they should step aside and let another capable guild through.

3. Spawn rot protection. In the event of a scheduled patch due in under 24 hours, it is requested that an unproven guild steps aside to allow a proven guild (if they choose), to kill certain spawns in North ToV - these would fall under the same guidelines as other up for grab spawns. If a proven guild doesn't request the spawns, then whatever, hehe.

4. Leapfrogging. This shouldn't be much of an issue, as we are going to be respecting each others space as defined in 1 above. However, in terms of the up for grab spawns, there may sometimes be more than 1 guild in NToV to clean up the leftovers. In this event, both guilds should agree on which dragons they intend to take out on the day of the raid.

5. Vulak. I felt that a special clause should be placed for Vulak. Basically, should any guild kill Lord Vyemm - that guild will get their shot at Vulak - PERIOD. It doesn't matter if Vyemm is killed at 3:00 am on the 7th day of their "rotation" slot. The other guilds involved in the rotation will respect this guild and their shot at Vulak.

*most edits done now*

[Baramos1]

Not ignoring this, but just didn't get around to posting on our O board, which I'm doing right now.

Baramos

[Baramos1]

We're still thinking about this, in Mythic.

It appears to be reasonable, at first glance.

We're going to take our Oct 5 turn in ToV before we commit to anything, however.

Having no experience there, yet, we want to get the lay of the land.

Baramos

[Ciner]

Heh 7 days? Are you kidding, thats damned crazy and unreasonable. Almost every single guild that clears all of north does so in in TWO days, three should be pleanty to clear it all. With if course the clause that if you do kill Vyemm you get Vulak regardless of the day.

I dont know why in the hell we are talking 7 days that would mean each guild basicly has NToV out of business for 2 damn weeks. My vote is 3 days to clear, if Vyemm not dead third day another guild(that has broken NToV, Aary) can get some tries in at him.

I agree with your two days on Aary then let other guilds go, which was what we talked about and agree'd on in IRC that day. We also agree'd on three days max, no idea where 7 came from thats wayyy too much and NToV would be rotated much slower.

Having been the first guild to crack NToV we know how long it took, it took 2 days to kill(and this was our first time) and we had third day to mess with Vyemm and stuff. 7 fucking days? Two weeks per guild per NToV is just outragous and totally unacceptible...

Would be looking at NToV once every 1.5 months with ML Hoss Vindi in rotation. Three guilds, 1.5 months, crazy.

[Quintall_ML]

Actually, it's only 7 days for a single month, then down to 4 days if I read that correctly.

And I believe the intention is to clear it, not just break it.

And where do you get 2 weeks per guild for it?

[Ciner]

Heh we cleared all but 2 dragons in 2 days, mind your our first time. Another day should be pleanty to mess with Vyemm Vulak. Especially after your first run through, as it will get much easier.

Also 1 wk clearing+1 wk respawn=2 Weeks NToV downtime.

[Quintall_ML]

Gotcha on the math, but it would still be only a week from spawn death to repop = 1 week, just spaced out spawns.

Like Bara said, let's see what it looks like when ML goes in there on the 5th. We'll likely blow through it as well, but until that time let's keep an open mind on the timing and dialogue for it.

Edit: ML intends to be there all weekend and then some starting the 5th, using this 7 day guideline.

[Andaas]

Ciner, from what I recall, you guys killed all but 3 dragons, Zlexak, Vyemm, and Vulak.

The reason for 7 days, is primarly to give a guild multiple days to attempt Vyemm. Considering that Vindication's current NToV raid has been going for 2 days, and I think you've cleared only Eashen and Aaryonar, I figured that you of all people would agree to these terms.

The bulk of that zone can be easily cleared in 2 or 3 days. I think FoH and AL can clear it regularly in 2 days, however I know FoH still takes 3 days sometimes.

[Andaas]

Also, the 7 day period mentioned is 100% targetted at giving a guild sufficient time to attempt Vyemm/Vulak. Considering that most of the zone will be clear by the 3rd day of the raid, that means that those 13 named will respawn on the same timeline (ie, 7 days), and will *not* hold up the following raid. This is the reason for the 2 day limitation on Aaryonar (to make sure people don't get a late start on a clearing).

If a guild wants to sit and try Vyemm for 5 days after clearing everything else in 2 days, I say more power to them, as they have EARNED the right to do it.

[Rohaise]

Just an update from ML on this topic.

After our first couple of days in here, and observing firsthand the huge investment of time and RL energy that this raid involves, Andaas' initial suggestions are spot on, and very reasonable, as far as we're concerned.

We've only had two and a half days in here, and there's a patch tonight, so we'll be back in right after the patch tomorrow to finish up our (patch-forced) 7-day raid allotment time.

In fact, as of this writing, there are still a few dragons that have not respawned yet since Hoss's clearing last week.

[Andaas]

I think we need to discuss how to handle patch situations with regards to a 7-day raid plan.

The issue at hand is the fact that a scheduled patch is something that everyone is aware of ahead of time - they are scheduled. An emergency patch is something that is out of control of everyone else, as they typically come with 6 hours of notice or less.

At what point of a NToV raid should a patch be considered "recoverable" (ie, where the guild affected by the patch is allowed to restart)?

Last week, Hoss was hit with an emergency patch on the 2nd day of the raid. Hoss had killed 4 or 5 dragons. Hoss got "extra" loot from 5 mobs due to the patch.

This week, ML was hit with a scheduled patch on the 3rd day of the raid. ML had killed at least 8 dragons as I write this. ML will get "extra" loot from 8 or more mobs due to the patch.

[Rohaise]

And not only that, Vyemm and Vulak still haven't spawned.

We were not able to get in our full raid because we would still have had to wait for them to spawn even if there wasn't a patch.

Btw, this patch had originally been scheduled for Tuesday. It was only moved back to Monday recently (thanks DAoC).

[Ciner]

Dude heh.. this is getting out of hand. The 7 day proposal, with more thought is reasonable, but, like everytime there is a patch its resetting, when guilds are getting half of Ntov and then starting over fresh. Basicly getting 1.5x Ntov a turn, as has happened in Hoss's case as well as ML's.

I'm sure i'm going to get pressed about this cause the only other two guilds in ntov just got 1.5 of a turn this way, but its just plain unfair and something should be said.

[Andaas]

Well, it seems that ML is taking their "turn" in NToV regardless of what is said here.

With that said, I say that Vindication be allowed 1 restart at any time in the future from now on for any patch.

From that time forward, SCHEDULED patches = no dice // EMERGENCY patches with more than 24 hour notice = no dice // EMERGENCY patches with under 24 hour notice = restart ONLY if 5 or less mobs have been killed (but the Aaryonar rule still stands... so if Aary didn't die on day 2, the guild still steps aside).

In my opinion, once you have killed more than 1/2 of the spawns, your raid has proven successful and you should move on in the event of a patch. The other NToV capable guilds have BOTH done this previously. ML is not following how it was done in the past, so new rules have to be created.

The Hoss raid in NO WAY interfered with ML's raid this weekend. We ensured that the spawns were up in time for you to kill them per your scheduled start time, considering that Vyemm/Vulak were to be saved for the end of the raid (and also considering that it was understood you were there for only the weekend originally).

I highly doubt that ML was purposely trained by Hoss to cause any delay in your NToV raid - especially since you weren't even raiding NToV at the time. If NToV was your "raid" for the weekend, I'm not even sure why you would spend the time killing Klandicar and Sontalak first.

[Rohaise]

From that time forward, SCHEDULED patches = no dice // EMERGENCY patches with more than 24 hour notice = no dice // EMERGENCY patches with under 24 hour notice = restart ONLY if 5 or less mobs have been killed

So are we to just let the mobs go unkilled then?

No one in their right mind would go in there for one day, knowing that would kill their shot at Vulak.

That's unacceptable as written. We need a compromise such as I suggested in my other thread of a secondary rotation for partial mobs.


The Hoss raid in NO WAY interfered with ML's raid this weekend. We ensured that the spawns were up in time for you to kill them per your scheduled start time, considering that Vyemm/Vulak were to be saved for the end of the raid (and also considering that it was understood you were there for only the weekend originally).

On the contrary, you did not ensure the spawns would be up. Only the first few dragons had spawned when we started.

If you thought we would only be there for the weekend then you obviously missed our post made on September 18th, which spurred the whole discussion of N ToV rotations, the final outcome of which was an agreement for a 7 day turn (which I think is too long myself, but it was your idea).


I highly doubt that ML was purposely trained by Hoss to cause any delay in your NToV raid - especially since you weren't even raiding NToV at the time.

You are wrong.

We *were* in N ToV when Sirensa, Sazar, and others trained us. You trained over a dozen of us who were bound there after a dragon encounter in N ToV. This was on *Saturday* night, well into our raid. It caused multiple deaths on many people (some died 4+ time in death loops), and required a sizable force to stop the raid and "rescue" those you had trained. I'm sure you can guess what our guildsay was like if you've ever had your defenseless, naked clerics and casters trained on repeatedly. Or maybe you haven't. We're getting used to it in ML.



If NToV was your "raid" for the weekend, I'm not even sure why you would spend the time killing Klandicar and Sontalak first.

We killed Sontalak on Friday afternoon before the raid, knowing that if we left him up, based on previous encounters with another guild, that it was highly likely he would be trained on our people traveling to ToV and our people who were bound there, given the opportunity.

Unfortunately, he respawned within 24 hours (Saturday afternoon), and lo and behold we were trained anyway just as we feared would happen. It's kind of a no-win situation for ML. We have become the defacto Sontalak police. If we don't kill him, we get trained on. So we have to kill him to protect ourselves.

(Klandicar?? That takes an extra 10 minutes to pull and kill after Sonatalak is dead. Don't even have to rebuff.)

[Andaas]

As for being wrong, I am basing this information on what you have posted, since as stated before, I was out of town for the weekend.

I really find it hard to believe that your people were trained intentionally - thats just silly.

I have been trained at the ToV zone entrance by members of ML while I'm naked and sitting at my bind point. I have been trained by members of ML while sitting in front of Kael. I have never once whined and cried about it like you have.

You are claiming what was done was done with malicious intent, I see no basis for this. If you had people die in NToV during a raid, and they just happened to be outside of the zone entrance at their bind spot naked, HOW ARE PEOPLE IN WW TO KNOW NOT TO TRAIN? As for people getting stuck in a death loop, well I for one am not likely to go AFK while sitting anywhere in Western Wastes - I have been trained at the ToV zone, the SG zone, basically everywhere. If I am bound there and need to go AFK, I am intelligent enough to zone into ToV first.

You claimed in your training thread that ML and others commonly offer to COH people in. Since ML wasn't doing Sontalak, I can only assume that ML didn't have COH set up, and the people training into the zone were doing so via the only means possible - to train.

[Andaas]

Originally posted by Rohaise
[B]

So are we to just let the mobs go unkilled then?

No one in their right mind would go in there for one day, knowing that would kill their shot at Vulak.

That's unacceptable as written. We need a compromise such as I suggested in my other thread of a secondary rotation for partial mobs.

It was just a quick draft of a simple idea, nothing that didn't need some adjusting. You need to relax a little bit and not snap the head off of every idea that is presented here.

I was presenting a simplistic approach to restarts, as I think both Vindication and Hoss agree that ML's clearing 75% of the zone and restarting is excessive - especially since both Vindication and Hoss have aborted out of even further advanced raids due to patches in the past.

Oh, and I would ask that you explain how the Hoss kill timing caused delays for your NToV raid. I would like specifics -- what dragons were not up when you were ready to attack them? How much time was spent by ML waiting on spawns, and when?

[Baramos1]

This thread's going off-topic.

Mythic, now that we have some experience there, will ponder the points being raised by Andaas, Ciner, Rohaise, and give some feedback by the weekend.

Baramos

[Ciner]

"From that time forward, SCHEDULED patches = no dice // EMERGENCY patches with more than 24 hour notice = no dice // EMERGENCY patches with under 24 hour notice = restart ONLY if 5 or less mobs have been killed"

Totally fair imo, willing to accept this as long as Vindication gets 1 patch restart when we please, to balance things.

Why is this turning into an arguement, can we not just finish this discussion and reach an acceptible solution to all involved.

[Baramos1]

I agree, Ciner.

I'm too busy at work to ponder it, this week, however.

I'll think about it on the weekend, and commit to a response by Sunday. Like I said earlier, most of the stuff seems reasonable, here.

Having spent the weekend there, and observing first-hand how things work verifies the validity of most of the first post.

I think all we need to do is work out the details, now.

Baramos

[Rezz]

As a guild that intends to start their foray into Nwing ToV in the foreseeable near future, I do have some interest in this debate. Some points that I see from my rather neutral (ie, uninvolved) position that I thought I would share my views on.

The unhappiness with spawns not being up on time, as Rohaise mentioned, seems moot and moronic to me. It is not the responsibility of other guilds to make plans that are convenient to each other's raiding schedule, it is a courtesy we extend. Nowhere do I see that we have to kill any mob by x time so that the next guild in rotation won't have to kill him at 4 in the afternoon due to turnout when he spawns again. If Hoss spent 7 days in ToV and killed everything by the 8th, that's it. If it all spawned on the 8th day of the next guild's raid, then tough shit, it's your responsibility to kill the shit as it spawns, not the other guilds to kill it according to when you want them to spawn. On most spawns we are given 24 hours to kill the mob. If the mob dies the second it dings 24 hours, I'd laugh my ass off at the next guild if they openly bitched and claimed they weren't given fair turn at it should it spawn when they don't have the numbers. It's called life, deal with it.

It's pretty simple. If there are 15 dragons that are to die in a 7 day period, it doesn't matter what day they spawn on, you have 7 days to kill or you fail/pass. Period. No extensions if you don't reach your goal by x day, if a time is posted to kill the mobs by and you fail to meet it, you Fail. It's the same exact thing with the 24 hour spawn rule. Hrm, should probably be mentioned that the once a month bye would pertain to the start of the raid, ie, the day your raid begins. if you want to push it one day up, use your bye, that's it for the month. It should not be an extension of the time or used on any day in the middle of. Killing anything in NToV is starting the raid, imo. if you fail 10 times at Aary and decide you don't have enough on, you don't get your bye. You have your week long foray and your out.

On the emergency patch deal or a zone crash perhaps, These are also a part of life. Every guild deals with them. If you have more than 24 hours notice on any patch, that patch and any raids are irrelavant. For Nwing purposes, if you kill every dragon but Vyemm 4 days into your raid, there is a scheduled/emergency patch on the 5th and full respawn, you have till the end of your original 7 days to kill them up to vulak, not another aditional 7 days. I also think that regardless of the number of patches or whatnot during your raid, you get 7 (seven complete and full) days from the Day you start to finish your trek into Nwing. If they patch every time Aary is dropped after the first, the guild gets 7 days in Nwing. If you kill everything but Vulak every day due to zone resets or patches, lucky you, you get 7 days in Nwing. 7 Full and Complete days. Having to pull out because another guild doesn't want you getting loot is gay, it was agreed on 7 days in nwing, 7 days is what you get, you don't get an emergency patch at 4 days and have to pull out because you were ahead of schedule, and get penalized for moving the rotation faster, you get SEVEN DAYS. As it changes later on that's great, but lets at least pretend we are being fair.

Training is lame to blame raid problems on. Newbies pull giants through tormax pulls to WL zone, people are fighting for xp in icewel and aggro dain and die and hold up the raid, blah blah blah accidents happen. Claiming you were trained and that it merits an extension of a raid is BS pure and simple, period. Sontalak gets trained to the ToV zone all the time, saying it was done maliciously is like saying someone pulled skeletons on you at the newbie log in neriak. It's childish and makes you sound whiney. As for escorpa of the ring coming with Sontalak, um, duh, he paths around in the ToV scar and gets stuck on the rock, but he most definately does path. if you aggro sont and make the circular sweep to give you time to run in, there's a good chance you'll aggro him. Like I said, this doesn't even sound remotely intentional, and it's silly to claim it is.

Hoss got 8 days in NToV and cleared their first time, first time on DRo for that matter. Am I to understand that other guilds will Not be given the 7 day learning period that ML and Hoss are so vehemently adhering to, once October ends? I think it needs to be said, and I'm pretty sure other non hoss/ml/vindi guilds will agree, if you had 7 days, we deserve 7 days as well our first time through. While it may seem acceptable to you now to change it after you have learned the zone, I do NOT find it accceptable to limit the guilds that aren't in there during your time frame (and a limited timeframe at that) This isn't like other rotations in this respect, as lopping 4 days off Hoss' raid would have caused it to fail. If Hoss and Mythic Legion spend 7 days learning/clearing their first time through, all other IGB guilds should be given the same consideration, BUT still adhere to the 2 day Aary clause. And as far as I'm concerned, Claiming 7 days and being unable to even get into Nwing deserves the removal of your first time grace period of 7 days and puts you on the 4 day schedule. Ie, don't attempt it if you don't think you can do it. Other guilds are waiting on these spawns, if you don't think you can drop aary in 2 days, don't waste time on the rotation with asking for 7 days until you are sure you can kill the suckah.

And most importantly, cut the FFA bullshit please. As huge as ML is, you don't really want every other guild on the server screwing up your raids intentionally, and as small as hoss is, a single add or two can spell disaster. I'm not threatening, I'm informing, because do you really think other guilds will appreciate having to compete with each other and race to every spawn because 2 guilds couldn't play nice? No. The IGB is here to prevent this lameass kind of behavior. D-ro has too many high level players and guilds to do friendly ffa, it will be very unfriendly. My guild won't train or screw with your raids, but I don't want anyone screwing with mine either. The IGB is the little shell around us that keeps us safe.. from each other, and lets us share and have fun.. with each other. If everyone else on the IGB can respect that, you can too.

There is no need for fine details on stuff. Generalize and stick to it, that's how every other rotated spawn is treated. Details lead to arguements over the exact interpretation, and the general meaning is lost. Treat Nwing like this and you won't have arguements. Your first raid in Nwing starts when you kill the first mob in Ntov. You have 2 days to kill Aary, if you don't, you forfeit your turn and leave Nwing. If you do, and it's your first trip there, you get 7 days from your raid's start to clear EVERY THING (skipping is ghey) through Vyemn. If it's not your first time in Nwing, you have 4 days to accomplish all nwing goals. If you clear it before the scheduled end of your raid by more than a day, you get till the end of your scheduled raid to kill Vulak. If you clear it less than a day before the end of your scheduled raid, you get one additional day to try and kill Vulak, pass or fail you leave when that day closes. The next guild on the rotation can come in at any point point after the alloted time, not before. When Aaryonar spawns next is the next guild's rotation. You get the full period of your allocated raid time to screw around as you wish in Nwing ToV, be it the starting 7 day raid or the normal rotation 4 day raid. Patches, scheduled or not, merely extend the time period by the length of the patch due to not being able to log on. You can do whatever you like and kill whatever you like, as long as it lies within your kill period. If dragons repop while you are killing due to patches or downtimes or zone crashes, you are entitled to kill them as long as you take no longer than your allocated raid schedule. If you kill aary and the zone repops, your raid does not start over, you have the remainder of the period from when you started till the end of your allocated raid time. If this makes it impossible for you to clear the zone, big yippee, it's life, deal with it. You can restart killing anything you want in Nwing, as long as you take no longer than your allocated raid time to kill up to and through Vyemn. if you are unable to accomplish this, regardless of patches, you leave at the end of your allocated raid time, period.

Now can't we all just get along? =)

[Quintall_ML]

Couple of minor points Rezz:

ML isn't complaining about spawns not being up, we're pointing out that they were due to be spawning as the patch was hitting, or later in the case of Vyemm and Vulak.

That was far from Hoss's first run into N ToV, though it was the first complete clearing.

I've yet to see someone make a 'circular pathing' to train Sont and get into ToV, and I've been present at many of the trains pulled onto ML there. In fact, the only time I've seen something remotely like this is when a large number of folks are trying to get into ToV, and one person trains Sont to DN while the rest haul ass to the zone. Sont warps to the zoneline btw, in case you haven't been there for that pleasure. It's NOT that hard to get a druid with CoV faction in there to harmony Sont, or to use a CoV faction mage to set up your own CoH. ML, as pointed out, has offered numerous calls when gathering for Sont, and on several occasions has been trained anyway because someone wouldn't listen. Not pointing any fingers, it's just a fact, and it's why when we hear people are going to train, regardless of being answered in ooc, shout, and/or tells, we petition now. It got very tiresome, and honestly most of the folks who got their rocks off doing this have left EQ on their own.

Yes Esorpa paths. But once she's stuck on that rock, which is fairly early, the only way she gets off is if she is aggro'd somehow, and having made that run from SG to ToV uninvis and KoS many, many times, I can tell you when she's there, she's out of aggro range of the side of the scar.

I believe the comment was already made that a guild on the first run in there would get 7 days, correct me if I am wrong, seems I saw this mentioned with L`Malla in mind actually.

On your comments about patches, that's exactly what ML has been trying to say here. Most of it is moot though, we're in there, and continuing the clearing as of last night.

Good comments Rezz overall, the input from an outside source can be refreshing.

[Thanatoz]

Its clearly obvious that Rezz should be the GM, not Dlgoth.

[Baramos1]

I have RL to deal with exclusively for a few days.

Rohaisa will drive resolution of this from the ML side. I may not be back in town awhile.

As I mentioned earlier, I think most of Andaas's original post is reasonable.

Some things to note:

- Rezz has a good point about 7 days to any "new" guild entering NToV.

- Is four days enough? I don't know, maybe. We may want to make it 5 days, even for experienced guilds. Something to ponder.

Baramos

[Andaas]

- Is four days enough? I don't know, maybe. We may want to make it 5 days, even for experienced guilds. Something to ponder.[/B]

4 days should be enough with the inclusion of the Vulak clause. Basically this means you need to clear *through* Vyemm in 4 days, and you will have the safety net of a 5th day for Vulak due to that extra rule.

[Rohaise]

One thing to mention about the proposed 4 (or 5?) day limit, is that no one on this server has yet accomplished this (I think?)

From what I've been reading here it sounds like Hoss took 8 days to clear? Or did that count the days before the patch + the days after? (i.e. how long did it really take you?)

I've heard about well known guilds clearing the zone in 2-3 days (or in a few hours if you believe the BS of Afterlife lol), but seems like Druzzil guilds my have a hard time of that.

I'm all for trying it though, just concerned that it may be difficult for this server's guilds.

If it turns out that Hoss did it in 4 days though, then I guess it won't be an issue.

[Andaas]

Vyemm was dead on day 5 after the patch, Vulak on day 6. We had 2 days pre-patch.

[Sirensa]

Starting with the emergency patch, it took us 6 days.

Days 1-4 - Everything save Vyemm/Vulak

Day 5 - Vyemm

Day 6 - Vulak

Obviously it can be done in less. FOH did it in one night last night. As it stands now, I would say a 5 day stint is fair. Allowing for a Vulak clause of "if you have killed everything through Vyemm on your 5th day, you can take a 6th day to kill Vulak".

This would work with ML's current post patch turn. Five days - Monday through Friday to clear through Vyemm. If everything save Vulak is dead come friday night, they can extend on Saturday to kill Vulak.

Seems fair to me to work with for now.

[Rohaise]

Ok to be clear then..

The current proposal (4 days) requires something that no one on this server has ever even accomplished?

I know we'd all like to be just like our heroes on Mithaniel Marr, but we're not.

How about 5 days to kill up to Vyemm then, since that's a proven number.

If guilds start clearing to him in 2 or 3 days someday then we can reconsider.

Just seems silly to say 4 days, when no one here has even done that.

[Rohaise]

And here's another unanswered issue.

What if 4 (or 5) days pass, and a guild has cleared everything except say Fish, Vyemm, and Vulak.

The rules in discussion would require that guild to then gtfo.

At this point do we permit anyone else to go in there to mob up the fish and get an easy, leisurely 1 night shot at Vyemm, taking advantage of 5 days of another guild's work? Or do we force a non-entrance law that says no one can go there until the dragons killed have respawned?

I really only see two solutions here.

1) ToV North rotation turn begins when you kill your first North dragon, and ends when the first dragon respawns (7 days, but ensures no one can slide in and get an easy Vyemm).

2) ToV North rotation turn ends after a set amount of days, and no one else is allowed to go in until the first dragons start respawning.

#2 would actually be the same as #1, except spawns would go unkilled. So #2 is actually kinda dumb.

So...

Again, it looks like we're back to either 7 days, or else we risk further conflict after a guild is "forced" out after 4-5 days.

A guild forced out means easy (or at least greatly reduced pain) for some other guild to run in and make a beeline for Vyemm.

I'm not sure what anyone gains, realistically, with a 4 or 5 day limit.

Just trying to think logically here.

I really can't think of any scenarios (or solutions) where this won't be an issue.

If we force a guild out, there's going to be problems.

However using "backspawn" as a guide for removal is very enforcable (since that would mean the guild is just farming dragons and not making a serious effort - or else not capable of a serious effort).

[Andaas]

There are going to be difficulties and limits to what each guild will be able to accomplish in NToV for awhile still. Dragons like Zlexak and Vyemm are by no means easy encounters, and I think that the new upgraded Vulak may introduce some new difficulties as well.

With the situation you present, where Doken, Vyemm, and Vulak remain, I suppose I would think it fair for the following guild to wait for respawn. However, what if only Vyemm and Vulak remain because guild X was unable to defeat Vyemm?

Why should a guild be forced to wait for a full respawn if they are confident that they will succeed in killing them?

This would be the same as if Zlexak, Vyemm, and Vulak were left up, due to a guild failing on Zlex and/or Vyemm. I think the leftover spawns should be able to go to use to someone capable. In this case, I think the secondary rotation for NToV should come into play.

Basically, the secondary rotation would allow for guilds to go in and clear spawns before a scheduled/emergency patch, as well as to clean up any leftovers from the prior raid that are up before respawn (including only dragons in this, as Ikitiar/Eashen shouldn't factor in for the secondary rotation).