Why LDoN is gay [Archive]

Nallick

09-11-2003, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by Torrid
It throws class balance OUT THE WINDOW.

Bow down to the rogues, knights, and clerics people. They are better than you.

Time limits make LDoN nothing more than a DPS orgy. No class comes close to rogues in DPS. Don't even try doing a hard mission without one, unless you have some hella nice pulling.

Of course, you could just do normal missions. But those are mind numbingly boring. We pull 7 at a time without enchanters and don't break a sweat. Its nothing more than widdling down a large collective pool of mob hp. Its so fucking easy its boring as fuck.

So here I am, stuck with not one, but two classes that suck dick in this expansion. Thanks Sony.

Here is the solution:

Make missions with time limits that last confortably longer than they take to complete, with situtions that require a warrior with defensive and *burst* dps. (i.e. make casters not worthless)

I have no idea how you mean this throws class balancing out the window. Just because a Knight can tank this stuff doesn't make a warrior useless. It also does not mean class balance is out the window.

I have done 6 trials out of that 6 trials I had a wizard 5 times and a warrior 5 times. Both the warrior and the wizard were usefull in all trials.

I don't see how LDoN changes class balance at all. The closest I have come to failing was with 30 mins to spare. On most I had about 45 minutes remaining.

Andaas

09-11-2003, 02:28 PM

Have you been doing hard or normal difficulty events?

If you notice, Torrid is commenting on HARD difficulty events, the normal events are not at question here.

Vinen

09-11-2003, 02:41 PM

Was doing a HARD event the first day LDoN came out. Group was 1 Warrior 1 Enc 1 Cleric 2 Wizard 1 Necro. We were killing as fast as we could. We wiped once but that wasent the point. We would have reached the guy we were supposed to save with about 5 minutes to spare if even. With that one wipe we had about 30 mobs to clear when we hit 10 minutes. I also felt like we were clearing fast.

Nesuril

09-11-2003, 02:45 PM

HARD difficulty is geared for completely or near completely Time geared characters with 200+ AAs. Even Hoss hasn't reached the level with which you can expect to be doing HARD with ease. And yes, certain missions are impossible to do without massive dps (the rescue the hostage comes to mind) because the shit just has so many hps. But dps has always been beneficial to xp groups. Loved parties that had 2 rogues. Or a rogue and a ranger, and a wizard.

Vinen

09-11-2003, 02:51 PM

I disagree Nesuril. Hard Raids are geard towards that. And im sorry. A Warrior Cleric Enchanter Wizard Wizard Necro should have no problem Timewise with the trial. I think the time restrictions are to low. I honestly dont feel that the time limit should be the main limiting factor in these instancs. It should be a thing put in just to prevent tons of instancs going at once.

Aelia

09-11-2003, 04:50 PM

Did a Hard assassinate mission yesterday with:
Druid
Cleric
Bard
Warrior
Warrior
Necro

And we had no trouble at all.

/shrug

-hs

Kattoo Tacit

09-11-2003, 05:33 PM

Faster pulling:o, clerics not going LD, and non-suprize evacs;) should help out a bit Torrin:p.

I know it is like telling a fish not to swim.....
but don't be so critical, especially on yourself.

Besides.... If a Knight couldn't do the single group shit that would be retarded....:eek:
If they can do EVERTHING in the RAID situations then I will agree with you.:rolleyes:

Torrid

09-11-2003, 05:51 PM

People arn't reading what I said.

Normal missions don't need ANY tank, let alone a warrior. Normal missions are pussy easy, hence they are boring.

HARD misssions are the only way to do anything interesting in LDoN. And they require massive DPS, or to quote my previous post:

unless you have some hella nice pulling.

If you don't have another mob being fought within seconds of the previous pull, then you will lose without high melee DPS. Period. This REQUIRES pullling before the mobs die.

Of course, if you have rogues or even a few monks, you can simply win by having a lot of melee dps. One rogue is worth two wizards here.

Time limits being the ONLY challenge = retarded

Riccee

09-11-2003, 07:12 PM

quit a long time ago, so im kind of noob now to new EQ content, but what are these missions you are all talking about? ;o (just curious)

Torrid

09-11-2003, 07:49 PM

Oh yeah, more LDoN gayness:

If you want the items you are looking for, you have to do the SAME DUNGEON over and over. This most likely conflicts with other classes. I.e. my wizard spell comes from mistmoore, and my warrior proc comes from everfrost. Which means I get to do twice the gayness that is this expansion just to get what I want for both my characters.

Secondly, the leaderboard is a joke. Make seperate leaderboards for the difficulties. Normal is so god damn pussy easy compared to Hard. Fuck, you could make a level 20 twink and deck him out with gear and farm missions that way to get to the top if you cared. And to top it off, the class balance absurdity further makes scores pointless.

Thuggo

09-11-2003, 09:37 PM

I have to agree with Torrin on this one.

The hard missions need an optimized group with the best gear and constant pulling to pull it off. SOE needs to change the name of normal setting to easy, add a moderate setting where the stuff hits for 500-600, and leave hard as is. I mean Christ I can solo the mobs in a normal setting and heal myself with a lifetap and be ok. As long as I have c5 on my group we can't lose unless we intentionally try to fuck up. As for the points reward for a hard mission I think the reward is 76 points. Gee what a great fucking reward for a mission that's 3x as hard. I get 50% more points than I would for doing a mission that has almost no hope of hurting me. I might as well do 2 normal missions in the same time and get 102 points instead. Lost Dungeons of Norrath my ass more like Gimpy Instanced Unremarkable Dungeons With Shitty Risk Versus Reward Assigned at Lag Infested Camps With People Begging Each Other For Buffs.

BTW I think SOE fucked something up. Most of the people I know are getting huge ping since this expansion went live.

The raid content better kick ass.

Kangaroooo

09-11-2003, 10:27 PM

Here's the real reason LDoN is gay. the noob's that make it to high lvl these days piss me off when i get 5 of em in my group. actually lost a normal assassination thing today and that includes the 30 minutes of alloted time afterwards to get the lesser reward. for all of the 30 minutes afterwards and about 10 or 15 minutes of normal time we were 2 rooms from the named we had to kill and the enchanter goes and chain dies 8 times. now thats the real reason LDoN is gay mmk. btw the warrior proc augment is that baught from the venders in Everfrost or is it dropped in the zone.

Torrid

09-12-2003, 03:50 AM

Groups killing normal missions in 25 mins with zero risk of death, yet run out of time on Hard missions because of ONE reason: lack of dps. Its absurd. You litteraly can do 2 normals or MORE in the time it takes to beat one hard.

Mob hp in hard needs to be cut in half. Hard should be hard because it requires pulling 3 mobs that hit for 900s at the same time, not because you don't have rogues.

Normal missions are putting me to sleep, literaly. I'm getting my two proc augments and quitting this snooze fest of an expansion.

Gryfalia

09-12-2003, 09:29 AM

Originally posted by Torrid

If you want the items you are looking for, you have to do the SAME DUNGEON over and over. This most likely conflicts with other classes. I.e. my wizard spell comes from mistmoore, and my warrior proc comes from everfrost. Which means I get to do twice the gayness that is this expansion just to get what I want for both my characters.

One would assume they did this so that people couldn't figure out the easiest mission across all 5 areas, then do that one over and over at the highest possible speed to get every good item they want.

At least they way it is you need to only find the easiest in the ones you want to do then power them out.

Still wanna see the cleric, 4 paladin, 1 chanter/shaman/bard group in MM. Wanna see undead explode at every turn.

Gryfalia

Talas

09-12-2003, 09:56 AM

Is this why I actually got tells to join LDoN groups last night? :p

Tilea

09-12-2003, 01:23 PM

People hating ldon already. Sure am sorry I decided not to bother getting it NOW! :p

Nallick

09-12-2003, 01:56 PM

I love LDON and I would love to be in that 4 paladin MM group. Muhahah die undead!

Thuggo

09-12-2003, 03:39 PM

I don't hate it. I just want it fixed.

Kattoo Tacit

09-13-2003, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by Gryfalia
Still wanna see the cleric, 4 paladin, 1 chanter/shaman/bard group in MM. Wanna see undead explode at every turn.

I'm leaning toward the 5 paladin 1 bard group >)

Grabbit

09-13-2003, 04:13 PM

Point awards are currently being reviewed on test...

At the moment the hard setting was bumped up to 150 pts, I can't say if that will stay the same when it goes live. The Hit point totals of the mobs on the hard setting is also being reviewed.

Hope that makes some of you feel better!

Marauder Grabbit the Assassin (http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=97756&resize=true)
65 Halfling Deceiver
Township Rebellion
Stormhammer

"The more we sweat in training, the less we bleed in war."

nwinn

09-13-2003, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by Kattoo Tacit
I'm leaning toward the 5 paladin 1 bard group >)

I wanna go! :D

Eliyahu

09-14-2003, 02:49 AM

Wow man, I mean I can't see any reason to be upset at an expansion finally giving us older players what we loved. I loved guk back in the day. It was my all time favorite area. I grew up in dungeons. There is a reason why people nowadays suck and the older players are skilled...dungeons.

I totally disagree with your assessment of needing no war and no wiz. I would take either in a heartbeat 100% of the time. If anyone has a right to bitch about this expansion it isn't a wizard or a warrior; it is a monk. Pac/lull takes out the need for a monk at all on normal level. They simply are out-dated. Their dps is severely substandard for the fact that dps is all they can do now. They are less dps than rogues and rangers and now dont pull or tank.

I absolutely love this expansion. There is content on demand for me, my guild, and every other person on the server. There is grouping content on demand without all of the xp spots being taken or trained. There is no more griefing, ksing, training, /ooc bitch fests, or any of the other annoying things you have to deal with on a daily basis in most zones. There is content on demand when all of our raid targets for the night are dead. You can log in and head into a dungeon and get xp + points + augments all at the same time while getting a chance to return to what made EQ so fun in the first place: dungeons.

I know you gripe about everything in a Furor-esque rant throwing around pedantic phrases and basically putting out the hip EQ disgruntled vibe, but I really do think that your cries are falling on deaf ears on this one. Wizards and wars are amazing to have in this expansion, and if you can't complete the Hard setting atm farm some more time gear and go back and try again. Just because you are use to doing something the first time with no trouble doesn't mean it has to be that way. Don't you WANT there to be something to work on? Don't you WANT content that one group must work together perfectly to achieve? No, you want everything to be doable on the first try so that you can continue your "this gimp encounter", "every gimp guild can do this", "this sucks because I did it in 20 mins" ranting. I can't see any basis in what you are saying and it honestly seems like you are just mad cause you have losses from doing hard trials and it hurts your online peepee to not have an asterisk by it signifying you lost *BUT* it was on a hard setting. I love this expansion and everyone else I've talked to feels the same.

Eliyahu/Wutno
65th Archon/65th Deceiver
Forge of Ro (www.forgeofro.com)

Torrid

09-14-2003, 03:53 AM

giving us older players what we loved.

This isn't what I had back in the day. Back then, we had A) no time limits, B) RESPAWN (i.e. challenge and danger), and C) loot, D) player interaction.

There is ZERO risk in LDoN. Back in 1999, one of my friends fell of the bridge in lower guk and had to wait days for the first level 50 on the server to help him get his corpse. We actually had to keep track of what we killed and when, because it may pop on us. We ran into other parties adventuring in the same dungeon, and occasionaly helped each other out. Instances just turn a MMO into diablo. If you think LDoN well turn boys into men, you're on crack.

I totally disagree with your assessment of needing no war and no wiz.

Knights are better tanks than warriors when /disc defensive is not needed. Just ask my cleric who eats 3k in damage before I can taunt the mob off him every few pulls, or the caster who gets summoned every other mob.

As for wizards.... well lets just say that my Warrior's damage over the course of one mission was HIGHER than the wizard's in my group. (no that wizard was not me, so you can keep your 2 boxed comments out of this)

There is no more griefing, ksing, training, /ooc bitch fests, or any of the other annoying things you have to deal with on a daily basis in most zones.

This is part of the MMO experience. If you can't deal with it, go play diablo. Other players have ALWAYS been the most dangerous variable in EQ.

I know you gripe about everything in a Furor-esque rant throwing around pedantic phrases and basically putting out the hip EQ disgruntled vibe,

By all means, reply with the links to other posts in this forum where I am bitching about EQ "like Furor." I have legitiment complaints about legitiment problems, and suddenly I hate EQ huh? Why the fuck would I be playing EQ after 4 and a half years if I hated the game? I MOCK the other MMOs for their poor design and how their devs are too stupid to realize what made EQ a monster success. Most of the time the "problems" they try to "fix" are a part of the reason EQ is still the top MMO after 4.5 years. Now EQ is trying to "fix" itself. If I have something to common with Furor, its that I expect a damn good game from Sigil, because they are the crew that made EQ what it is today. (I just hope they have a better engine)

your cries are falling on deaf ears on this one.

Tell that to all the "I agree with Torrid" repliers in this thread. Even Sony agrees to some degree, because they are fixing the rewards and looking into mob HP on high risk missions, which is exactly what they should be doing.

Wizards and wars are amazing to have in this expansion

Please explain to me why a warrior is better to have over a knight. Please explain to me why a wizard is better to have than a rogue, other than to save 5 minutes running back to the camp. Apparently my 500 days played and tanking every encounter in the game doesn't give me more insight into the mechanics of playing my own classes than you have.

and if you can't complete the Hard setting

I just completed one with 40 minutes to spare, thanks. Not that it was worth it, when I could have done 2 normals in the same amount of time.

Just because you are use to doing something the first time with no trouble doesn't mean it has to be that way. Don't you WANT there to be something to work on? Don't you WANT content that one group must work together perfectly to achieve?

Listen carefuly dumbass. I never said high risk difficulty was too hard. I said the time limit on it made it require too much dps, which in turn throws class balance out of whack. Players at my level are SUPPOSED to do high risk missions instead of normal, because normal is too easy for us. Got it? So my options are find rogues, or do content that is trivial to me. Actually, until they fix the rewards for hard missions, my only option is do normal missions which are trivialy easy to me. (hence boring) Wow thats fun.

I can't see any basis in what you are saying and it honestly seems like you are just mad cause you have losses from doing hard trials and it hurts your online peepee to not have an asterisk by it signifying you lost *BUT* it was on a hard setting.

How many missions have YOU completed on Hard? ...thats what I thought.

For the record, my cleric went LD during the missions I lost, and we had no rogues or monks.

If you think being able to do trivialy easy normal missions in 15 minutes when finishing a Hard mission in under 40 is impossible with time geared players makes the leaderboard a fair comparisson between player wins, then I'd call you an idiot.

edit: typo

nwinn

09-14-2003, 05:18 AM

/agree Torri_

The hard adventures really aren't worth the time in their current state.

Buazag Bonesteel

09-14-2003, 07:34 AM

I don't really have the experience to have a valid opinion on a lot of this. I've only tried 3 missions so far and one of them involved a crash to desktop as I zoned into the adventure and I couldn't get back in....so really only 2.

I don't know that the reward for a hard mission is really enough right now.....but I do think that the more challenging missions are more fun. We tried one yesterday and wound up failing seeing as we had no chanter....multiple pulls wound up owning us. Still had a good time though. In the long run I think I am going to like LDoN stuff simply because it makes it easier for me to log on in the afternoon during the week when I have time to play and probably find something worthwhile to do for a few hours. The xp is decent at least even if there aren't a ton of rewards that I care about at least from the lists I've seen so far.

I would hope that some of the higher end hard level raids are things that both require a well geared, skilled crew to complet as well as offering better rewards. As much as I might like it if I could log on and get a pickup group for some random adventure that actually nets me some piece of gear that I would actually wear......I also wouldn't think it was right if just any Joe Blow could outfit himself with gear equivalent to or better than that which we get as a high end raiding guild.....it would sort of take the luster off all that hard work.

I guess I'm rambling here again (big surprise) but I like the fact that I can go back to some of the old style dungeon crawls again and actually get xp and have some element of risk involved. Even if the odds of any good loot dropping for me are negligible I still have fun. I'm sure that as time goes on there will be changes.....I mean we know from experience that they NEVER do anything right the first time heh. One can only hope that there either are challenges in LDoN that will be desirable for a Hoss type guild or that they will be added as time goes by. Until then I think that many of us are simply having fun with dungeon crawls again. But damn VI for not giving me any new spells that are worth a damn. If I have any bitch so far that would be it. 5 new spells(I think) and not a one of them is something I would really ever have memmed even if I went through the trouble of getting them......oh well what else is new. :rolleyes:

Eliyahu

09-14-2003, 01:29 PM

A) no time limits, B) RESPAWN (i.e. challenge and danger), and C) loot, D) player interaction.
I agree that time limits are annoying bro, I was a bit upset by them when I did my first missions. Now I think they are the way it needs to be when you dont have RESPAWN. You do realize that we were never intended to sit in ass/sup or frenzy and pull mobs to there while farming a named right? We were always intended to crawl through the dungeon encountering mobs. The mobs would need to respawn though and sitting in one place would create danger due to that, but how is that any different from a timer being in place and needing to press on into a new room with mobs. Moving on to new mobs and mobs spawning and pulling them to a room is the same danger with the exception of the 2 min respawns encountered in VP. If you are pushing on the respawn has no effect on a crawl

Loot? Each dungeon you complete is getting you one step closer to a piece of loot that YOU want and YOU can choose. Do you remember wanting that fbss? smr? ssoy? fungy? How long did some people have to camp that before it dropped and they won the roll? Some people spent weeks with nothing to show for it. That's weeks of time spent with nothing to show, and it could go on indefinitely if they were unlucky. Now, however, you can find an item you want and spend your time working towards that goal. When you have done enough adventures you can purchase said item. Luck has nothing to do with it. You can get an item purchased from points you earned. Wow, finally what I can get to upgrade a character is based on how much I work for it, not some RNG.

Player interaction? You mean the fact that I, and many many others, have grouped with people we've never met before and gotten a chance to get to know them and their playstyles? Are you sitting there really trying to sell the fact that trains, ksing and listening to 13 yr old conversations in /ooc is part of an enjoyable MMO experience? Uh-huh. NOT.

By all means, reply with the links to other posts in this forum where I am bitching about EQ "like Furor." I have legitiment complaints about legitiment problems, and suddenly I hate EQ huh?
I read your updates and I always get the same thing from it: "we killed this gimp mob", "this sucks", "that sucks", and now "wars are not needed", "wizards are worthless". I never said you hate EQ. What I said is that what you say reminds me of a mini-Furor. Like a bobble-head doll portraying the typical uberlite assessment that any encounter you beat is totally gimp and any encounter you don't is too hard and must be tuned down. Basically, the mentality is one of being constantly disgruntled by everything you do. That is the "in" thing for EQ ubers these days.

I just completed one with 40 minutes to spare, thanks. Not that it was worth it, when I could have done 2 normals in the same amount of time.
and yet I'm a dumbass because
I never said high risk difficulty was too hard. I said the time limit on it made it require too much dps, which in turn throws class balance out of whack. Players at my level are SUPPOSED to do high risk missions instead of normal, because normal is too easy for us. Got it? So my options are find rogues, or do content that is trivial to me. Actually, until they fix the rewards for hard missions, my only option is do normal missions which are trivialy easy to me. (hence boring) Wow thats fun

So wait, are you telling me that if you would have had say a wizard or druid or warrior or shaman added to that mix it would have taken you 40 more minutes?? So much more time that you would have failed due to lack of dps?? Yes, wait I think I am a dumbass because I dont understand you. You MUST have rogues because of the time limit, and yet you do them with 40 mins to spare. This tells me that you could have basically taken in ANYONE, because there is no way 1-2 rogues could make up for a 40 minute disparity in kill rate. Sorry, not buying it. Even Aelia said she had a group with Druid Cleric Bard War War Necro and won. She actually said she had "no trouble at all".

I think maybe you were a bit too hasty to jump on the "my classes both suck and I"m going to bitch" band wagon? Just possibly?

Should the rewards be retooled? Sure. Chests should be worth opening. More points for hard events would create a desire to do them and work harder rather than farm trivial content just to get a faster point rate. However, if it's boring to farm trivial things, why not have fun earning points at a slightly slower rate? Why do you HAVE to do the quickest point route? Why can't you have more fun actually en route to your goal rather than just being hyper-focused on the result? Are you one of those people that never enjoys the trip, only the destination? :(

Eliyahu/Wutno
65th Archon/65th Deceiver
Forge of Ro (www.forgeofro.com)

EDIT: bold syntax > me

Torrid

09-15-2003, 01:32 AM

The difference between old dungeons with respawn and LDoN dungeons with a time limit, is that groups with shit for DPS can still succeed, just slower. If you pick a high risk assassination mission, you jeopardize your chance of winning by adding a wizard over a higher dps class, because you may run out of time.

Apparently you started dungeon crawling after dungeons got crowded, because what I consider the "glory days" of Guk, were when there were never more than 3 groups in the zone. Sometimes we would meet up with each other, exchange buffs, maybe we would ress one of their members. Stuff like that.

Somtimes you run into jackasses. Thats life. Thats part of the Massively Multiplayer genre. If you create zones that only your party enters, you no longer are "massively multiplayer," you become diablo. EQ's problem was everyone ended up at level 50, and there were like 2 dungeons to go to, and everyone wanted the same handful of items.

As for the front page, I act like a cock because thats what uber guilds do. Its humor. The comment "any gimp guild can reach time but we fuck up positioning this bad" was SARCASM and a joke at my guild's expense.

We won that mission in 50 minutes because:

We had a rogue and a monk.

Even the non-dps classes had some of the highest dps weapons available The bard was doing 100 dps. The wizard had a 35% DD focus and concussion pants (and still aggroed a shit load I might add. yay warrior aggro)

Everyone had time gear.

We had no enchanter or ranger, but we had enchanter and ranger buffs.

I spent 15 minutes searching for a mission that was freaking doable in 90 minutes. At the rate we were going (and believe me, we were pulling fast) we might have lost an assassination mission due to lack of time. At no point were we in any danger of dying, let along wiped or had to evacuate. We were killing at a rate of just over 1 mob a minute. (including all downtime)

Again, I ask you: how many high risk missions have YOU beaten?

And no, getting points on hard isn't "slightly" slower. Its A LOT slower. They doubled the points on test, and I feel they actually got it about right. Now what they need to do is add at least 20 minutes to hard missions or lower the mob hp.

Cardinal

09-15-2003, 08:35 AM

I've tried one Hard mission. ( All hoss types and if i recall, we were on the high side of DPS). We won without much fanfair. I don't recall the exact makeup but a bard was central to it working smoothly. Don't recall being pressed for time at the end, but it did take far far too long for the reward given. There is no incentive whatsoever to do a mission that grants you 50% more ap, and yet requires 3x the time to complete. The loots did not seem upscale in comparison to a normal setting either.

After doing the one hard mission, I have little desire to retry another. Perhaps if the reward was 200 ish ap and the loots upgraded and the time limits extended . . .

LoDN does appear to be the land of Bards and knights, hell on normal setting you don't even need clerics. I was in a random pickup group last nite of a Shaman/BST/Rogue/Wizard/Bard and we completed a "kill x" mobs with 55 minutes remaining. I never dropped more than a bubble or so of health in any pull I made either.... So the ideal LoDN group seems to be a Bard, a Pally, and 4 rogues.... (or I guess in all the Undead dominated zones... 5 Pallies and a bard..)..

.. I still seem to be enjoying it regardless, some of the missions do turn out to be more challenging than others even on normal, and the D2 'ish augment feature does have its own appeal (although the implementation should have been more thoroughly thought out and explained.... grats me on that 220 ap +3 damage type 5 stone I bought thinking that it would fit on any type 5 slot and higher....).. and as to further marginalization of the warrior class to a 2ndary DPS toon ... whats news? Just a reaffirmation of what gettin exp groups has evolved into in the Pop world...

.... somehow I just don't see Sony throwing we Warrior types any kind of a bone. Sure, the warrior class needs some major tweaking with respect to knight classes, but do you really see SOE ever making such an adjustment? I'm not about to hold my breath ;)

- Card

P.S. For now , just have to remain in quiet bliss as knight classes wilt in first 5 or so rounds of melee'ing Time Gods .... at least we have one small role yet to fill......

Eliyahu

09-15-2003, 09:04 AM

I guess neither of us is seeing the point of the other. I am saying that if you could complete the mission with ANY combo, meaning the best combo, and it take only 50 minutes then the time limit is fine. I cannot imagine substituting out a warrior for that rogue, or a wizard for that rogue, and the disparity in dps being larger than 40 minutes causing you to fail. In fact, you claim you were never even in any danger while rolling through the dungeon at a mob a minute clip but want 20 MORE minutes and less hp mobs. Hmm.

You are then sitting here expecting me to buy that it is somehow too hard?? You were never in danger, you finished in half the time alotted, and yet without a rogue and monk you would have failed miserably. Wow, if this is so then we better nerf rogues and monks. Monks, btw, are a substandard dps class. I'd dismiss the notion of having one of them over a ranger or rogue, or wizard even, since nothing needs to be fd split when you have pacify or lull.

Wait though, you are saying that if it happened to be an assassination mission you could have failed. That if you would have picked 1/5 genres that the group make up you had would have had a chance, albeit small, of failing. Oh Nos that must mean that it's too hard!

I do totally, 100%, agree that the reward for a hard dungeon should be more. I'd go as far as to agree upping to 85 points for a normal mission. Do you see though that the gap between time geared players and the rest of the population would grow exponentially in that circumstance? A very good group of non time geared or elemental geared players can roll through a normal mission in ~45-50 minutes. For this they net 51 points. As it stands, in that same amount of time played you can do a hard dungeon and earn more than them. You earn more than them, not because you are more skilled or because your time is more valuable than theirs, but merely because the equipment you have allows you to do the hard version. All of a sudden, because you have the equipment that grants you the ability, you deserve to get more points for your 50 minute dungeon romp than normal dungeon crawlers.

Are you in more danger of dieing or failing on a hard mission? You said yourself you weren't in any danger and finished with 40 minutes to spare. How is that different than a normal dungeon group finishing with 40 minutes to spare with no danger of failing? Your 50 minutes of danger free time is somehow more valuable than theirs, I get it. You can't claim RvR either. You are at no risk, they are at no risk. You are at no more risk comfortably completing a hard mission in 50 than you are comfortably completing a normal mission in 30. You get 76 points vs. their 51. If you want the ratios to be completely even then you need to get 85 points for a hard mission. That would be exactly the same rate in time/points doing a hard in 50 and a normal in 30. Maybe even bump you up to 100 points for a hard and give you a little pat on the back that says, "Grats on having time equipment".

No, I haven't done a hard mission. I dont have a time geared or elemental geared guild. I plan on it though even without an ifir + equipped rogue, FT15 + full focus effect casters, and 8500hp unbuffed tank. We may fail, but I can't wait for the challenge. For a group in my tier, without the best of the best equipment, I would be well due double the points because there -would- be danger of both wiping out and failing the mission. There -would- be risk. I do not agree though that when you complete a mission on hard that has no risk to you for failure that it is any different than a lesser geared player finishing a normal adventure with no risk for failure. Both are putting in time to earn points. No person's time is more valuable than anothers with all things being equal.

Eliyahu/Wutno
65th Archon/65th Deceiver
Forge of Ro (www.forgeofro.com)

Gheltire

09-15-2003, 09:51 AM

The point is, for a 50% more AP reward, much more exclusionary party makeup (equating longer wait times for grp org), tons of mobs with tons of hp, and taking up to 3 times as long, the only "reason" to do Hard is because it's "Hard" and most can't do it...

If I only have 2 hrs to play, which am I gonna do? 4 normals for 200 points? or 1 hard for 76? Not to mention the fact that at about half an aa per mission, I can nearly knock out 2 aas in 2 hrs as opposed to pinning one mob against a wall for 10 minutes and calling it "hard" because it has 3 times the hp of a mob on normal, does nothing different except hit harder, looks the same, and drops the same 20p

So in normal, when some wizards' nukes don't even have time to land, and rangers can tank 3-4 mobs at once with shamans healing, and balanced by the fact that more people are willing to do normals than hards, the warrior and the wizard may get frustrated because they aren't contributing what they might like to the party...

and actually, yes, Hard should be dependant on what gear you have to succeed plus skills, not ability of any person with tenacity to just beat on the same mob long enough to win over and over and over for 50 minutes until you kill 58 or whatever...so the Hard is going to be meant for elemental and above because it's in the same fashion as PoP. It doesn't have anything to do with whose time is more valuable than others, it's in the same line of logical planning that SoE created the PoP flags

Everyone is gonna have the ability to try Hard, unlike having the ability to try Rathe, but instead of a flag, this time the prereq is gonna be gear. And if those that have the gear to do them would rather do normal because of risk vs reward comparison, then SoE has to retool the Hard to get them to move there...if that makes any sense:)

vegu

09-15-2003, 10:16 AM

This is part of the MMO experience. If you can't deal with it, go play diablo. Other players have ALWAYS been the most dangerous variable in EQ.

so true.

Eliyahu

09-15-2003, 10:18 AM

I agree that you should get more ap for a hard setting. I just dont think you should get disproportionately more. 200ap for a hard mission means you can do 4 in the time it takes for 1 hard. Doing a hard in 50 minutes means you'd have to do a normal every in 12 minutes for the same reward. I dont care what gear you have, that's not possible. 30 minutes is reasonable for uber players to knock out a normal mission. Including travel time to and from consider that 40 minutes from mission acceptance to starting again. That's 51 for 40 minutes vs. 76 for 50-60 minutes of a hard one. Up the hard to 85-90 and you have the same proportion of time spent to ap gotten. Possibly up the aaxp in hard to even that out and I think everything is good. Seems it would even it out a bit. I do agree there should be upgrades to the points, but let's not be excessive.

Eliyahu/Wutno
65th Archon/65th Deceiver
Forge of Ro (www.forgeofro.com)

Gheltire

09-15-2003, 10:43 AM

at a one to one ratio, there is still no incentive to do the hard...you are still making the same AP over the same amount of time...ie in ten hours of gaming with 50 points per 40 minutes you'd have 15x51 ap (765) on normal....in ten hours of gametime on hard you'd have 11x85 (935)....170 points of AP, for 4 more missions IF you are able to maintain a hard for ten hours.

Whereas I can probably get 15 normals over a 10 hr period (maybe on a good day), I have no chance of getting a properly organized, class balanced party on hard 11 times over a ten hr period, so that number comes down even more when taken over the 3-4 hour blocks that most are able to play between RL etc

I have no facts to base it on, other than my own brief LDON experience, but my general idea would be that you can get a normal group 3-4 times as easily as getting a hard group (normal can succeed with a druid healer; hard needs cleric, slower, tank, some combo of dps) So while the hard is forced to wait on a shammy or tank or cleric to get on, a normal can just form up and go...if you say one hard group every 2 hours from formation, to adventure finalization, I think you get back to 765ap on normal vs 425ap on hard (5x85)

Eliyahu

09-15-2003, 11:34 AM

Do augments drop more often in hard? Is there anything other than the points given as a reward for doing hard missions that make it worth doing over normal? I agree that is something that has to be considered. It does take a bit more to get a hard group gathered because the pool of players geared appropriately for the encounters is lower and also because people love to take the easiest path.

The main point of my discussion so far in response to Torrid has been they dont need to be easier. The mobs dont need to have less hp and groups dont need more time. The truth of that is played out consistently by Aelia's group make up in a Dru Cleric Bard War War Necro. I see no rogues or monks there. Not even a wizard or mage. What I see is 6 random assortment of classes finishing a hard setting without much trouble. If a group can complete a hard trial without the Must Have rogue/monk dps core I really doubt the time limit and mob hp is a factor which needs to be addressed. Greater hp mobs have always been a staple of encounters deemed -harder-.

I would totally concede giving more points to hard setting adventures. Double what you get for a normal setting. 120-130 even. I can't agree though that the hard setting should both be made easier AND given an enormous increase in ap. There is already zero risk for the hard setting for groups with appropriate gear as has been stated. Why then give hard settings both more points and less difficulty? I enjoy a challenge, and I'm sure many do. Hard settings are not a challenge for people in your gear. Why not make them even less of a challenge and give them 4x the points?

Eliyahu/Wutno
65th Archon/65th Deceiver
Forge of Ro (www.forgeofro.com)

Eliyahu

09-15-2003, 11:45 AM

And in response to the MMO experience entailing dealing KSing, training, /ooc bitch fests: You are saying that ADDS to the game? You mean when you are sitting in BoT at a mini camp and someone trains your group, kills the mini and takes off you get wet in your naughty place? Ohh wait, no. You dont frequent zones with all of the people that make up the "new" 65 crowd. You xp in elementals off the beaten path of every ksing, whining, training asshole on the server. Most of the time you aren't around the general population long enough to know what they are doing, much less get trained or ks'd by them. I guess that is something that is viewed through rose-colored glasses. You look back fondly on the times when you rubbed shoulders with the commonfolk. Those were the days right? Everyone interacting in one big happy family. They now made it where you could enjoy the game without those negative factors, and if you so choose you can go to BoT and get your fill.

I think being able to interact with your friends without the retardation that is the general populace is something that should be able to be experienced by all; not just those xping in Elementals. You basically have had your own instance for months to play in without being bothered by the MMO aspect. I'm glad others can now enjoy that too.

Eliyahu/Wutno
65th Archon/65th Deceiver
Forge of Ro (www.forgeofro.com)

Maegwin

09-15-2003, 11:54 AM

And all our plans were going so well until you blasted kids had to show up and gain access to the elemental planes!

Oh well, we moved on to Time for the most part...can't say as I miss any of the little people who we stepped on to get where we are today...the elementals are all yours! ( for what it's worth )

Tarissa

09-15-2003, 12:05 PM

I think what Torrid is saying is that its not so much impossible to do a hard level without the "key" classes, but that it is impractical and inefficient. Sure, you *can* but would you really want to?

People who are competitive 'power gamers' don't want to just 'get bye' they want to 'get bad as fast as fucking possible as much as possible with all the resources and tricks available to them'. If you find that the characters whom you are pretty much enbonded too over your 500 days of playtime aren't cutting it, there's no real easy option of re-rolling and starting over. You suck it up and complain about the problems and hopefully VI listens. Without bitching, EQ would still be a very bad game heh

Concerning the MMORPG stuff and how it is better to play in a bubble - I like the idea of LDoN. It gives people the option of seclusion and a challenge without the added factor of other players, which I always think is nice. But EQ in many respects has had its classes balance and spells designed around player competition and conflict and the idea of respawns (meditation, camps, and respawn being the key examples of game mechanics designed around a stationary group even if the designers didn't realize it).

Talas

09-15-2003, 12:39 PM

I just wish this type of expansion was around for me when I was really looking at itemizing my character. To those in mid-range guilds, this is truly an awesome expansion.

Save up, and grab something that you have worked on for several weeks. This is much better than treking down into Sebilis and hoping that you will get the mythical haste cloak that drops about once every 24 hours of continual killing. You also don't have to roll amongst classes that will not use your item. These ideas are great. They would have been incredible if this was implemented back when RoK was released.

Here you don't have to sacrifice exp for gear, or gear for exp. Same amount of time nets you a very nice balance.

On the other hand... when the only real risk here is failure to complete a trial, it isn't that much fun. The current expansion is no where near the difficulty of PoP groups, which is a bit of a shame. I was under the impression that the "normal" mob for a level 65 group would be hitting like Bastion of Thunder mobs, not like... Ilis Knights in Sebilis.

The only real gripe I have is that I don't really have a lot to gain (at first glance) from buying this expansion. There is no real difficulty from the normal setting, and why would I run the hard setting if I can still gain quite a bit more from the normal setting? I can run up 1000's of adventure points for the dungeons, but none of the augments worth saving for can fit into elemental or potime armor. I assume that the raiding-style LDoN will get us the augmentations that will fit in our current slots, but then - what is the point of building up adventure points, when all of the augments we will be using will be drops and not purchased? The make-your-own bp I had in mind will increase my current bp by 30hp-40hp, and maintain the wearable effects that I already have. The item problem is insignificant compared to the difficulty problem.

Traps are implemented and they are still REALLY hard to disarm and pick for a grandmaster rogue. It was a nice idea, but it really came too late. With the timed setting of the adventures, why does my group want to sit and wait 3-4 minutes for me to open a chest that gets us the same amount of platinum from killing one monster (that we could kill in under 30 seconds)?

The functionality of the expansion is there, and it is probably more complete than any previous expansion to date, but the balancing is SEVERELY lacking. Balance this expansion up and it will be great. Keep it at its current state, and it will not be very entertaining.

Tarissa

09-15-2003, 12:46 PM

The solution to your questions will probably come when Verant reitemizes and balances this expansion like they do EVERY time ;)

Talas

09-15-2003, 12:57 PM

but it is usually in opposite fashion!!

I would really like to see how much budget spending they allocate for development on an expansion after it has been released... :p

Cardinal

09-15-2003, 01:25 PM

I fail to see the rational explanation for penalizing you if you happen to have put the effort in to obtain PoTime or Elemental gear. Why should we not be able to upgrade our wepaons like anyone else? So Time weapons are already powerful, adding a relatively piddling augment isn't going to throw the balance of power any more askew than it already is... relatively speaking, the bang I'd get for adding a +300 hate modifier to a time weapon is less in magnitude than someone adding a +300 hate to a Copper Hammer... go ahead LET ME DO IT DAMN SONY

I'd love to really use a decent augment, does this mean I have to do a 36 person raid on hard setting to get a 1/36th chance at a yet to be published slot 8 aug? (given the reports of even normal setting 36 person raids are v. poor at risk vs. reward.... oo I know I just get all warm and fuzzy over the thought at spending 2+ hr to get 30 ap !!)

... damn it I wanna be able to use that type 4 or 5 aug in my type 8 slot!!!!

- Card

Lexi

09-15-2003, 05:34 PM

If elemental were my own instance Andaas couldn't accidentally train the pheonix's on me that evil druid.

The mission we completed in 50 minutes was a kill x mobs in y minutes. When we hit the y number of mobs dead we were only halfway through the dungeon. An assassination of the same level of difficulty would have more than likely run us out of time. This with a hoss group including a monk, rogue, cleric, bard, warrior, wizard.

Parses post fights are consistantly showing hoss rogues doing in the area of 250k dmg and hoss wizards at 150ish. The tuning on hard makes it even worse as the mobs are much more resistant.

I have tried 4 hard missions now with groups varying from random pick up groups to hoss stacked groups. The over all impression is without a fairly well decked out group and hte proper mission type you aren't going to win a hard. The AP rewarded is too low for the risk required.

I haven't noticed an increase in drops or worth of drops in the hard vs the normal level either. I think this should be tuned.

As to the instancing, I think they could have fixed something like this to allow for a lower guk which only let 30 people in before reinstancing or 6 groups etc. MMRPG's create areas that can be over crowded for the amount of space allowed. I think the massive idea is fun but at the same time where is the mystery and excitement in crawling through sol B when every spawn point is camped by a group (no I don't mean area I mean every single spawn, original release pre Kunark this occurred.)

All in all I'd have prefferred to see more thought out dungeons in the same locations with a solid storyline that was non static. Allowing for groups to gain fire ish xp but having the dungeons of a difficulty that made risk vs reward mean something. Of course this isn't the game Everquest was created as. EQ has never been a "dungeon crawl" its been a character developing kill them all let the server sort them out adventure.

I think its too late to try to introduce a dungeon crawl environment and what we are really seeing is experimentation for EQ 2.

Joshua
aka Sexy Lexi da SUPER gnome!!!

Torrid

09-15-2003, 08:39 PM

Khael

10-03-2003, 06:32 AM

The 'raid' classes have always been a bit slacking in your one-group situations. Warriors, clerics, wizards... they've never been ideal for exp grinds and such. It's not a new problem, it's just the enviroment in LDoN that enhances it from the background where it's been residing as far back as since they fixed 2hers damage tables.

Perhaps warriors and wizards will get the bone the clerics got, perhaps not. Time will tell.

edit: my sig pwns me :D

Stitz

10-03-2003, 06:45 AM

paladins owns me and it makes me so sad.

oh yeah whats up with the slot restriction on augments? hp only on arms/bp/legs etc and ac/resists only on neck/face/cloak etc.. how can you custom your items if there is only 1 kind of augment you can put on em? So damn retarded... Makes me a very upset lizard

Torrid

10-03-2003, 10:10 AM

Clerics not ideal for exp groups? Wizards ideal for raids but not rogues? Pass the crack around please

Mkai

10-06-2003, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by Khael
The 'raid' classes have always been a bit slacking in your one-group situations. Warriors, clerics, wizards... they've never been ideal for exp grinds and such.

Wizards sucks in XP grind?
Put me in an outdoor zone (horse) with VoQ and Pot9 and I'll keep up for a long long long time.
In normal adventure in LDoN with KEI I can do and keep up an almost constant 40-50% of mob damage in the most sucky group.

Perhaps warriors and wizards will get the bone the clerics got, perhaps not. Time will tell.

edit: my sig pwns me :D
I'm always up for an upgrade though :cool:

Torrid

10-07-2003, 02:57 AM

Yes, you suck in exp groups.

The issue that makes some people think otherwise is when your pullers don't do their jobs worth a shit, and your group does not stay in combat for long enough, robbing melee of their dps.

I guarantee you my warrior does more damage than you in my groups.

Khael

10-07-2003, 03:54 AM

Clerics got their fix, if I was unclear on that part I'm sorry :p There was a time when no group would take a cleric over a shaman, perhaps you might recall that time if you think hard enough.

Rogues are so exceptional in 1-group situations that I don't consider them a raid class (though I know fully certain their value as such).

You know what I meant Torrid :p

edit: I really need to fix that sig..

Khalaman

10-07-2003, 07:55 AM

[QUOTE]Wizards sucks in XP grind?
Put me in an outdoor zone (horse) with VoQ and Pot9 and I'll keep up for a long long long time.
In normal adventure in LDoN with KEI I can do and keep up an almost constant 40-50% of mob damage in the most sucky group.QUOTE]

Exactly what Torrid said. You are playing with alot of downtime, which you really can not afford in LDoN. If anyone in my group starts to go on sleepy mode, I start pulling myself :D Wizards can not keep up with constant pulls.

waright

10-07-2003, 08:27 AM

I love wizards in ldon groups.

Torrid

10-07-2003, 09:59 AM

Parse some logs Waright. The only time the best equipped wizard on this server beats my warrior in LDoN groups are when we beat them in about 25 mins or less.

And rogues have always been a fantastic raid class. Even back all the way to kunark when they could disc 1k backstabs on 32k mobs. Even in luclin they matched wizard dps (or exceeded it) when you didn't artificialy inflate wizard damage with mod rods. Rogue is probably the one class you can NEVER go wrong with. And now with LDoN, they totaly rise above the rest signifficantly.

waright

10-07-2003, 12:14 PM

Well, from the bard perspective rogues and wizards are more equal (than without). If I manage to keep my main 3 songs up 100% of the time I help out a rogue by about 20%. I don't know exactly how much I help a wizard but I would guess its about 30 to 40% between the 7.5% and the 21 mana per pulse. my guess is normal regen is about 40 to 50 with good buffs/equip/aa. That 25 minutes you coin is probably about 35 or 40 minutes when I am on my game (the normal time it takes for a normal mission in a hoss group). So unless we start doing hards IMO wizards and rogues seem to do about the same and I have never had a rogue port me out of a dungeon without me procing my hammer on him. Yes I don't parse so I may be 100% wrong.

I have not seen too many agro issues with nukers with hoss groups... and that is with BurnemIOverAgroLikeAMoFo.

EDIT: also I would say that not having to run out and waist 5 minutes+ does equate to DPS since the true calc of DPS should not be done per mob... but per hour... or better yet 3 hours of hard play.