Just curious.. Bush or Kerry?

[Trazz]

Bush, Kerry or other?

[Tilea]

Kerry - because Bush sucks. I hear they're thinking of opening up voting to people in Canada with american citizenships. If they do I'll put it my vote for Kerry no problemo.

[Zarxen]

Kerry

[Thuggo]

Why isn't Cthulhu a choice?

[Peotr]

Other....

[Thuggo]

WTF, why are you so predjudiced against the dead but dreaming herald of the elder gods Peotr? He is just as good a candidate as those other two poo flinging monkeys. It's wrong to lump him in the same category as Al Sharpton and Ralph Nader.

[Forty]

Kerry may not be the answer but, imho, he would be better than Bush.

[Thuggo]

Kerry may not be the answer but, imho, he would be better than Bush.

http://www.kerryhatersforkerry.com/

[Jacais]

In this election year the facts have been hard to find. Not anymore.

- 1.9 million jobs created in 13 months
- No successful Al Qaeda attack in America since 9/11
- 45 million people freed in Iraq and Afghanistan
- Taxes lowered for every taxpayer
- 9/11 terrorist leader Khalid Shaikh Muhammad captured
- Economic growth of 4.8% in the past year, among the best in 20 years
- 75% of Al Qaeda leaders captured or killed
- Unemployment reduced to 5.6%, below averages of 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s
- Elections in Afghanistan
- Highest home ownership in American history
- Saddam Hussein captured

Even though Bush sometimes doesn't know what he is talking about, It is better to judge a man by his actions than his words. Bush has done well imo other than talking. The guy seriously needs to go to a Speech Therapy class.

I will elect for Bush primarily on the Facts stated above.

PS: Take this as you like, I believe this is the most important election in 20 years. This is the first time I have ever "investigated", or found out stuff about election. So far, I can tell you Bush will get Georgia, Texas, and Ohkloma <spelling sucks>. Kerry will get California, Flordia, and New York. All I have to say is good luck Bush, I personally think you have done a tremendous job.

[Aerothas]

David Cobb for President (www.gp-us.org)

[Varran]

you need to get stats from somewhere other than republican sites tho... I know for sure the jobs created one is an incomplete stat (is not net jobs created, doesn't take into account the jobs that have been lost...).

I'm not able to dig right now, but will grab some stats for ya throughout the day and post em later. The wonderful thing about stats is that they can be used to justify almost everything and can be interpreted in a variety of ways sometimes even proving contrary points.

[Forty]

In this election year the facts have been hard to find. Not anymore.

I would seriously question every single one of your sources. As Varran indicates, there are more unemployed in this country. You stat shows half the story and that was proven after the debate.

Saddam was captured. Big deal. The man was harmless as the CIA, the United States and UN weapon inspectors, and the international community has shown. We should have never entered Iraq and stayed focused on Afganistan.

Based on more complete picture of the economic situation in the United States, Bush has done an average to below average job. Combine that with a horrid Foreign Policy and I wouldn't give the man two bits to shine my shoes.

So, I think I would have to completely disagree with you Jacais on everything but your comments on his speaking. I can't take anything he says seriously.

[Nallick]

Anyone but Bush. Andaas for President.

[Razeer]

Bush is a pimp, we need more presidents like him that start wars. Kerry is a pussy, hes all about the party boy scene. BUSH IS A PIMP !!!!!!!!!!! GO BUSH!!

[Seraphina]

Considering all thats happened to this country, I feel Bush has done an admirable job. Though people, since the last election, have been trying to undermine his leadership in every way possible, he has still been able to help this country recover after the worst attack on our homeland ever and helped the economy get over the recession that started during the Clinton years. I hope no one forgets 9/11, and I hope people realize who truly attacked us. I've met people who are so full of bitterness and anger, it really frightens me. They go so far as to tell me they feel Bush is behind 9/11, that Bush is a drug addict and alcoholic, and that basically he's worse than Hitler. I personally don't see how anyone can feel so adamant about the junk that spews from people like Michael Moore. I think this world would be a better place if people put more faith in the lord, rather than some guy who's just out to make money. I mean comparing him to Hitler is rediculous and believing every propoganda you ever hear is simply showing me that some people are very easily mislead. I've been a longtime independant, I actually voted for Gore, but I must say, Kerry is not the answer for what ails this country. Voting for any candidate because you dislike the other is simply not the smart thing to do. If you don't like the candidate of your party, vote for Nader or Badnarik, or write in a vote for yourself. Don't vote for someone you don't believe in.

[Eomer]

Resisting.... urge.... to.... go nuts on Jacais and Seraphina.

I am at one with the universe.

I am at one with the universe.

*deep breath*

I am at one with the universe.

[Forty]

I don't like Michael Moore either...But if you don't think Bush and Cheney don't have dollar signs in their eyes either you have not been paying attention. Kerry, imho, would be the lesser of two evils. I do like a few of the ideas Bush has, but he never seems to be able to get them past the speech stage. At some point you have to wonder if it is just lip service. And I'd like a President that knows the difference between fetus and feces.

Since 9/11 what exactly has Bush done? Do you really think we are any safer now then we were then? People seem to forget the the United States has been under terrorist attack since easily the 1960's, with the attack on the WTC in 1993 being the most notable homeland attack before 9/11. If he were interested in protecting the United States the bulk of our troops would be in Afganistan, first responders would have the equipment they need for terrorist threats, airports would actually be safer instead of extended lines and shipping channels would be safer with cargo containers actually checked. But instead, billions of dollars are earmarked for "preemptive" strikes.

[Zarxen]

Bush is a pimp, we need more presidents like him that start wars. Kerry is a pussy, hes all about the party boy scene. BUSH IS A PIMP !!!!!!!!!!! GO BUSH!!

:rolleyes:

I hope this is all in jest?

[Trazz]

Since 9/11 what exactly has Bush done?He DID vote for the 87 Million to equip our troops!

Does anyone even know that Kerry was dishonorably discharged from the army? Then when Clinton was in office, he sealed his information?

Sorry, I want a president that stands up to terrorist and supports our own troops when forced into action.


Need I say more? check the pictures. The right stuff and wrong stuff.

[Varran]

I do kinda like that one stat tho that shows no al qaeda attacks since 9/11. I forget, who was president during those attacks? I wonder what, if anything, could have been done differently in the months leading up to that day to change the course of events. There will likely be people arguing that for a big part of american history.
He isn't the devil, he just isn't all of the things he pretends to be either.

It will be interesting to see what happens on election day, I dont really think it's the most important election ever as some may think, but it is certainly going to determine the direction the country and the rest of the world takes over the next few years.

edit: love those pics trazz

[Forty]

He DID vote for the 87 Million to equip our troops

Oh really? Then why are troops still complaining about being underequipped and even refusing to go on basic supply runs because of lack of supplies and protection even today, calling them suicide runs? And dang it, there was an article released today where the owner of an Army surplus store in Groton, CT stated that he had a lot of the service personal buying equipment with thier own money. That included flak jackets. Now I can't find it. =/

How exactly is Bush standing up to terrorist in Iraq? Because of WMD that could be used against the US? Where are they then? Iran just finished their Nuke testing. You feel safe knowing that? We going to attack Iran next? If anything, terrorist are now pouring into Iraq simply because we are there.

If we have any hopes of actually bring terrorist to thier knees it's going to take a better effort from a President that can get better support from around the world. And please don't try to say we have more countries involved now then we did in the first Gulf War because 15 troops from 30 countries most people have trouble even finding on a map doesn't count in my book.

I too want a president that will stand up to terrorist and will support our troops when forced into action. And I wonder why Bush hasn't yet. Sending troops into harms why without a solid plan, sending them into harms way underequipped in NOT supporting the troops. Sending troops into a country that repeated intelligence information says "They pose no threat to the United States." isn't standing up to terrorist. Nor is sending too few troops to do the job right. We have enough troops to handle the situation in Afganistan, but not in Iraq as well. There is zero reason for us to have had Reservist called up except that we are scattered too thinnly across around the world.

The pictures prove what exactly? Nothing.

[Tarissa]

Considering all thats happened to this country, I feel Bush has done an admirable job. Though people, since the last election, have been trying to undermine his leadership in every way possible, he has still been able to help this country recover after the worst attack on our homeland ever and helped the economy get over the recession that started during the Clinton years.

So, you are saying that the attack against us would have occurred regardless of our foreign policy? And that Bush's virtue was in dealing with it?

Why do you think there is so much money and hate for US in that part of the country?


I hope no one forgets 9/11, and I hope people realize who truly attacked us.

Me too. And who exactly would that be?


I've met people who are so full of bitterness and anger, it really frightens me. They go so far as to tell me they feel Bush is behind 9/11, that Bush is a drug addict and alcoholic, and that basically he's worse than Hitler.

Are you sure they didn't say that bush played a part in being responsible for 9/11? Or that he did some drugs and was an alcoholic? Hitler references are dumb, overused hyperbole though.


I personally don't see how anyone can feel so adamant about the junk that spews from people like Michael Moore.

What do you disagree with from Michael Moore and why?


I think this world would be a better place if people put more faith in the lord, rather than some guy who's just out to make money.

Are you saying that someone who inherently has no other goal but to make money would choose to make low to mid budget documentaries like Roger and Me, Bowling for Columbine, and Fehrenheit 9/11?

More faith in the lord? Did you really go there? Seriously?


I mean comparing him to Hitler is rediculous and believing every propoganda you ever hear is simply showing me that some people are very easily mislead.

The great thing about propoganda is the assumption it is valid information without critical examination. Do you think you don't believe any lies?


I've been a longtime independant, I actually voted for Gore, but I must say, Kerry is not the answer for what ails this country. Voting for any candidate because you dislike the other is simply not the smart thing to do. If you don't like the candidate of your party, vote for Nader or Badnarik, or write in a vote for yourself. Don't vote for someone you don't believe in.

Then the complication of how that vote impacts the election comes into play. A write-in vote (or a vote for Nader for that matter - assuming he doesn't have to be written in anyway in some states) serves no purpose other than to exercise your free will. But those people won't get elected. What would the ramifications of a write-in be then, if those people who do write-in are the majority of the kerry "swing voters", and by consequence, you help elect Bush? It's been a popular thing to dislike Nader for his influence on taking away votes for the democrats. And because he's just really, really fucked up.

[Daisiee]

Voting for Bush because Kerry sucks.

[Ryukami]

Do any of you have friends in Iraq? People actually there? My point is, every single voter goes off of information that has in some way been altered to suit a certain candidates' position. I have 4 friends in Iraq and I haven;t heard anything from them about not having the armor they need. Three in the marines and one in the Army. One interview I heard a guy saying he saw soldiers without armor everywhere. Does a communications expert working in a secured building on a smoke break wear armor? See what I'm getting at? Information during an election is always so fucked up, I can;t stand it. I'd like for once a non-billionaire rich pussy, playing-president nominee become president. Or a candidate that doesn't let his campaign advisors decide what he beleives.

The president only has the right to veto anyway. Though it may seem untra-powerful, I don;t take his policy history into consideration seeing as veto is hardly ever used. If you want to vote on health care, jobs, etc etc.....be more concerned with your Congress....they right up 1000 times more propositions than Bush does....his just gets more press.

[Varran]

I would like to add here that people seem to really get bent out of shape saying that Kerry is just some billionaire, etc. Bush was never some sorta poor farmer that worked his way into office. He is rich, he has always been rich. He just stages all sorts of photos showing him as an everyman average kinda guy and people buy into it.

And arguing that his policy has been shit during his stay as president is because he has no real power isn't helping any.

The president lied to the public about wmd to get into war. That was the reason for going, and it turns out it was based on partial information, documents were ignored because they didn't back his position. He wanted to be a wartime president and obfuscated his way into that role. Where is the accountability? Why was the war with Iraq, who had no evidence of having wmd (or plans/ability to create), so important, yet Iran was allowed to create them? Are they not as dangerous?

Yeah, Saddam was a nutcase. Bush himself however stated before he was elected that America should not be expected to use its power to change governments in foreign countries. What made Saddam worse than Ali Khamenei? What made Saddam worse than Kim Jong-Il? Should the American troops next be sent to Iran and North Korea to clean up the mess in those countries? Countries where the mess is actually dangerous to the rest of the world.

edit: would like to add that I think all of us know people there (even me), I think some may know more than others since there are a few in the military here.

[Razeer]

Go Bush !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (x50 or so...)

Edited by Andaas: Please try to keep the maturity level above 5th grade.

[Llain]

http://homepage.mac.com/duffyb/nobush/iMovieTheater146.html

just something bush supporters should see

personally im voting for kerry, most people who still support bush still believe the right wing media spin that's fed to them on a daily basis.

that site i linked has all kinda of media against bush. it shows footage of himself and his administration saying one thing and swearing on it, then footage of them saying the exact opposite. journalists can quote them and they deny it, then footage is shown them saying exactly that.

click a few links on this site at random, it will open a QT file watch it. if you still arent convinced kerry is the right choice in this election then atleast you gave the other side a chance.

[Tarissa]

Do any of you have friends in Iraq? People actually there? My point is, every single voter goes off of information that has in some way been altered to suit a certain candidates' position. I have 4 friends in Iraq and I haven;t heard anything from them about not having the armor they need.

Your four buddies must not know the people who got the 400 trauma plates the people at somethingawful donated for because the army/marines didn't have the money for them.

These are not people who sit at a desk. Saying both "all information is altered" and everything suits a candidates position. I would look at everything critically, but to declare it false before even reviewing it is irresponsible.

[Llain]

In this election year the facts have been hard to find. Not anymore.

the "facts" haven't been hard to find while the real facts have. the type of facts you speak of are on fox news channel 24/7.

[Forty]

The comparisons to Bush and Hilter, while very simplified and something I doubt I would approach, can be made from the fact that many key players of the Bush Admin. belong to "A New American Century". An origanization that believes that the United States should use it's military might to force American policies worldwide. So, one could say Hilter used his military to force Germany's policy on the world.
http://www.newamericancentury.org/

The following link gives some additional insight.
http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/2003/01/27/news/local/5025024.htm?1c

Ok, sorry, looks like you have to sign-up. I didn't the first time I went to the link. Anyway, I'll leave the link if you're interested. In a nutshell, it tells of how the PNAC had plans to attack Iraq four years before 9/11.

[Vidmer]

This election moreso than any other requires a viewing of the Simpsons Halloween episode with Kang and Kodus running for president...

[Lexi]

You're right Trazz, Bush is much better suited to be a logger than a leader. =o

[Maegwin]

PNAC
Partially Nude American Colony?

[nwinn]

You're right Trazz, Bush is much better suited to be a logger than a leader. =o
Yeah... so some reason I keep getting logged in as Lexi. Cleared cookies out and logged in again, it asks if I want to debug an error when I hit the login button but it proceeds anyway. :|

[Zappo]

Hermann Goering, said the following at the Nuremberg Trials:
"
Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.
"
Goering was Commander-in-Chief of the Luftwaffe, President of the Reichstag, Prime Minister of Prussia and, as Hitler's designated successor, the second man in the Third Reich.

[Zappo]

http://www.moveon.org/fox/

[BurnemWizfyre]

Hmm, Clinton recession....dont recall that, maybe it started to recess a lil as he was leaving office. One thing i remember for sure is the country had a fucking huge surplus of cahs that bush managed to deplete in a matter of months, whats are debt at now, its a proven fact that the ecnonmy strives during war times, it has every single time in the past, but this dont seem to be the case this time. Bush is a retard, which is what i dont understand. Bush was govenor in my state and i hadnt heard a single retarded comment from him at all, hell he was a good govenor, he should go back to that imo.

Kerry, no fucking thank you,.

Bush vs Kerry, no matter who wins we all lose imo.

[Ktul]

I hold the same basic view as Forty. I travel all over the world and I've noticed this trend of anti-american feelings growing..many feel we are arrogant, egotistical know it alls. Our government bullies its way into other nations legislation all the time dictating foriegn and domestic policies, using trade and other policies as force. I guess we do know how everyone else should live =|




Need I say more? check the pictures. The right stuff and wrong stuff.

wow you are right....we need a man with vision!

[Eomer]

The other interesting thing about Bush and the whole Nazi thing is that his grandfather, great grandfather, and to some extent his own father were all involved in companies and financing connected with the Nazi's. His grandfather even had his company taken from him by the government, although he still made a killing. I don't know a lot of details on it, because to be honest a lot of the stuff out there on it is probably exaggerated or just outright bullshit, but Prescott Bush was certainly making big cash off WWI and II. He wrote the book, and Cheney sure as shit must have read it :D.

[Torrid]

I don't read, but I do watch the history channel. There was a big program about the 9/11 commission report. Basically it said people were pounding on the president's desk about terrorist threats before 9/11, and the administration ignored it. These people are now pissed the president is trumpeting how much he is making us safer from terrorism.

I also think this "fuck you, we'll do what we want" attitude is just creating more terrorists. I am rather disgusted by this "the terrorists hate freedom" nonsense Bush likes to throw around. The terrorists hate our POLICIES, not freedom. Anyone who thinks the U.S. is completely innocent and did nothing to the Muslim world is brainwashed and/or ignorant. The "they suicide bomb us because they hate our culture" crap is nonsense. I bet you didn't know the U.S. Navy blew up an Arab airliner 2 decades ago, and gave the commander a medal for it.

Then there is the whole Kerry and Bush being in Skull and Bones issue. Either way the election turns out, the same organization will control the country. You can laugh at this all you like, but the history channel had a one hour documentary about this not-so-secret society as well.

Our election process is fundamentally flawed. The "Nader effect" is a HUGE problem. It outright prevents people from choosing the candidate they want in office. Wired magazine recently ran a story about how to improve the electoral system which I thought was very good. One of the improvements was to sort of rank in order which candidates you would prefer, so you could say, vote for Nader without aiding Bush.

[Vinilaa]

I <3 Torrid. ;)

[Trazz]

I hold the same basic view as Forty. I travel all over the world and I've noticed this trend of anti-american feelings growing..many feel we are arrogant, egotistical know it alls. Our government bullies its way into other nations legislation all the time dictating foriegn and domestic policies, using trade and other policies as force. I guess we do know how everyone else should live =|




wow you are right....we need a man with vision!
That is a good picture.

[Trazz]

I don't read, but I do watch the history channel. There was a big program about the 9/11 commission report. Basically it said people were pounding on the president's desk about terrorist threats before 9/11, and the administration ignored it. These people are now pissed the president is trumpeting how much he is making us safer from terrorism.Tell me you don't believe everything you see on TV.. Considering "The History Channel" is in direct affiliation with NBC and ABC.. We all know what party they are rooting for =P.

[Varran]

Well personally I don't believe everything I see on tv, although I will say that I do believe the footage of bush saying one thing, and then when questioned about it denying he ever said it.

The people that defend Bush know he's lied. They just choose to ignore it. He misquotes and takes Kerry statements out of context to try and make people outraged, and people buy into it. He relies on his supporters to blindly believe him and not actually do research.

We all have our beliefs, and lets face it... Americans with few exceptions vote along party lines. If you are republican you will vote republican regardless of who the candidate is, the same goes with democrats.

A big portion of the rest of the world dislikes the US. It used to be due to arrogant travellers (unfortunately it doesn't matter that the majority of American travellers are great people, the few bad or stupid ones ruin it for everyone). Now its due to the arrogant belief of the current president that America is the world's policeman.

Originally before he was in power he was against that sort of behaviour, but he has quickly changed his tune. All it is accomplishing is creating a gulf of dislike that affects all Americans.

I can't say that Kerry will be any better, we can't really know unless he wins and we see. What we do know is how Bush will act (regardless of what he says).

[Kattoo Tacit]

Bush vs Kerry, no matter who wins we all lose...

Pretty well sums up the entire discussion.

Since not playing EQ I have done some extensive reading. One book inparticular is notable not for the story, conspiracy, or propaganda it contains, but for the examples of how easily the masses can be manipulated by those in power. The book is The lluminati, by Larry Burkett. Not to be confused with many other books similar in title.


I believe that no matter what party holds the White House, the same people who hold real power and money will be putting the same pressures on any President. This would be hard to argue. I have always favored the Republican party. Due to Bush telling me Iraq was packed with WMD's and Al Qaeda cells, due to the knowledge that information to the contrary was ignored and pushed to the back, and the fact that it was all a lie by the President to the American people and to the world. I have to not vote for Bush. Kerry has not lied to me yet. Odds are he will prove just as disgusting as Bush, but for now I'll settle for someone with whom the entire world including myself does not already despise as a liar.

Hi btw.

[Torrid]

Funny, I always considered the history channel to be more conservative than anything. Considering half their content is about war, glorifying America (not that I object), and another quarter about guns and weapons. Then there were the anti-saddam programs that all but justified the war. For the record I am glad that SOB is gone, but how it was done was wrong.

[Lothbah]

Can't really say war is a democratic or republican thing anyway, Torrid. Kennedy and Johnson (Vietnam) were democrats, as was FDR (WW2), while George H.W. Bush (Persian Gulf) was a republican. Its just that this time its the republicans.

I think its kind of funny how the republican party pretty much condemned what Clinton was doing in Kosovo and Iraq, and now take it about a million steps further.

Anyway, yeah, I'm not sure who to vote for (between Nader and Kerry). Kansas is going to Bush, so my vote's not likely going to count anyway, except in local elections.

[Eomer]

Lothbath, the reason Clinton wasn't allowed to bomb Kosovo (or any of the other places he bombed) is because he got head from an intern. I thought this was common knowledge?

Here, let me simplify it: Head from intern + Military Action = Republican outcry.

Conversely: Terrorist Attack from Nation A + Military Action Against Nation B = He's resolute and steadfast.

This is pretty simple calculus here people!

[Tilea]

ROFL Ktul that picture crakced me up :)

Bush's administration is the entire REASON 9/11 happened. They were given infromation from the CIA indicating that al queda was planning to hijack planes and use them as weapons. They were told that they had their people in the US learning how to fly the damn planes but they ignored the information.

While I think they did the right thing in Afghanistan, Iraq was wrong. They sent a lot of US soldiers to die in a war that wasn't even necessary. Colin Powell (spelling), shortly after bush won the election, stated on television that Hussein had no weapons of mass destruction and was not a threat. Then they just changed their minds?

Add in the fact that Bush uses the American constitution as his toilet paper and it baffles me than anyone would even consider voting for him a second time. He tries to enforce his own religious beliefs on the country, which in itself is unconstitutional.

[Maegwin]

Bush's administration is the entire REASON 9/11 happened. They were given infromation from the CIA indicating that al queda was planning to hijack planes and use them as weapons. They were told that they had their people in the US learning how to fly the damn planes but they ignored the information.

Ignored? I don't know if you can say that. I believe there was a large invesitigation done that stated the administration and the CIA did everything reasonably possible to counter any of the threats they were perceiving at the time.

You cannot blame the newly instated Bush administration for 9/11. They didn't hijack the planes and fly them into the towers. If you're going to blame an administration you must blame the Clinton administration for their failings the previous four years which led up to the 9/11 attacks.

[Lothbah]

http://votergasm.com/pledgeheader5.jpg (http://www.votergasm.com)


the best idea ever

[Forty]

Ignored? I don't know if you can say that.

I can.

Check some of the names at the bottom of the letters and the dates. They were just waiting for something to happen. Based on the letters, I think we were eventually going into Iraq with or without 9/11.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm

"In the long term, it means removing Saddam Hussein and his regime from power. That now needs to become the aim of American foreign policy."


http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqletter1998.htm

"U.S. policy should have as its explicit goal removing Saddam Hussein's regime from power and establishing a peaceful and democratic Iraq in its place."

[Tarissa]

Ignored? I don't know if you can say that. I believe there was a large invesitigation done that stated the administration and the CIA did everything reasonably possible to counter any of the threats they were perceiving at the time.

You cannot blame the newly instated Bush administration for 9/11. They didn't hijack the planes and fly them into the towers. If you're going to blame an administration you must blame the Clinton administration for their failings the previous four years which led up to the 9/11 attacks.

Nooooooooooooooooooooo!! Et tu Andy? Say you aren't voting for Bush! Say it isn't so!! :( :( :( :(

[Maegwin]

I'm on the fence.

[Eomer]

How many cabinet level meetings on terrorism did the Bush administration have in the 9 months prior to 9/11? Zero! This despite the fact Richard Clarke was practically begging to have one, and Clinton on his way out warned the administration that their biggest worry was going to be terrorism. I think saying that Bush and Co. are to blame for 9/11 is a little strong (I would think the people to blame are the ones who planned and carried out the attack), but they basically got into office and proceeded to slap their hands over their ears and scream 'NYA NYA NYA NYA NYA NYA NYA" every time someone mentioned terrorism to them.

As far as saying it's Clinton's fault because the plans were hatched and put into place on his watch, that's unfair as well. What happened when Clinton authorized an attack on what were believed to be Al Qaeda training camps in Sudan and Afghanistan with cruise missiles? Every major media outlet and pundit screaming "WAG THE DOG, WAG THE DOG" and saying he was just trying to distract from the Lewinsky bullshit. Because the Republicans were so willing and eager to do anything to tar Clinton, they turned him into a lame duck President who couldn't do a damn thing about terrorism without the public perception being that he was doing it only for personal gain.

And that's kind of ironic, considering who is sitting in the VP's office now, isn't it?

[Twong]

I just think it sucks that "the lesser of two evils" needed to be used in this discussion...

><

[Azis]

Bush's administration is the entire REASON 9/11 happened.
LMAO, who was responsible for the tower bombings in 1993? UNDER CLINTON's admin!!! (ya same guys)

Lets face it, no matter who wins, people will hate the U.S.A. We will always have fucktards that want us to burn in hell. If ANY of you think that Kerry or any other canidate in the next 20-30 years will change that...well here is your wake-up call for you.

Ya Bush lied to get us in a war(but Saddam did kill his own ppl with WMD's)...Personally if Saddam tried to assasinate my dad, I'd be pissed & out for his head too. On top of that we have Oil interests there.

As for calling up reserve troops? ...Ya...thank Clinton, cause we had one hell of a military coming out of the cold war with Regan.

Economy being blamed on Bush? Are you kidding me? If us Americans could have went about our normal lives after 9/11 we wouldn't have seen any* downfalls to the economy during Bush's 4 years...but NO...we all stopped traveling, stopped spending, and WE...the consumers of the U.S. did it to ourselves.

I dunno, for a guy that has 3 purple hearts, you would think that the man would have voted to get our guys body armor...but he did not, and I think that says just about all we need to know about how this man will run our military and forieghn relations...without a backbone.

Bush is not the best man for the job, I will admit that, but Kerry is WAY too shady to be the MOST powerful man in the world.

The best thing we could do for the United States, if we ever want a good man/woman leading our country...is to put a salery cap on the presidency~

[Torrid]

Yes, lets impeach Clinton for lying about sexual relations, but it's perfectly fine for Bush's lie to start a war that wouldn't have otherwise happened.

Frankly, the fact that so many people hate Bush makes him a bad leader. Someone should put a nice framed poster up in the oval office that reads: The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[Thuggo]

Hussein used WMD's... in the Iran-Iraq war against civilian targets in Iran. He killed hundreds of thousands of people. However he chose the right enemy to fight at the right time, the US wanted a country to act as a buffer against Iran. In fact Reagan handpicked someone to go meet with Saddam Hussein, Donald Rumsfeld.

http://conscience.notfrisco2.com/archives/Pictures/handshake-thumb.jpg

Rumsfeld sure didn't care about those WMD's Saddam had then, but of course they were being used to murder Iranians then. President Reagan had Iraq removed from the list of countries supporting terrorism; even though Iraq continued to provided training facilities to the PLO, Hamas, and other Palestinian terrorists. This paved the way for better relations and weapon sales in the mid to late 80's. When Hussein gassed several Kurdish villages in norther Iraq in 1988 it was no small surprise, but it was basically business as usual with the Reagan administration. In fact Reagan said that


The United States’ public criticism of Iraq for using chemical weapons would not derail Washington’s attempts to forge a better relationship

Of course this opinion all changed when Iraq invaded Kuwait. The US and it's allies of course won a resounding victory against Iraq and sanctions were put in place to contain them. However not everything was working quite so well. There was corruption in the oil for food program that allowed Hussein to launder millions of dollars and use that to keep his regime propped up. Many corporations were involved in this as well French, Russian, and.... American. Several subsidiaries of Hailburton profited greatly from this, including Ingersoll Dresser Pump Co. which sold millions of dollars of equipment to Iraq through a French subsidiary. They would have sold more but several contracts were blocked by the Clinton administration because they violated sanctions put in place against Iraq.

Meanwhile in the mid and late 80's the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan was not going so well. The Soviet controlled the cities but outside of them it was difficult because US funded and supplied Mujaheddin would ambush Soviet troops at every opportunity and then melt away into the countryside. Coincidently enough one of the better Mujaheddin commanders on the US payroll was the son of a Saudi billionaire by the name of Osama Bin Ladin. Another group of US supported mujaheddin included a group calling themselves "The Taliban" which means students of Islamic knowledge. After the Soviet withdrawl from Afghanistan their puppet government collapsed and a civil war ensued. The Taliban ultimately prevailed, except for a few enclaves of resistant. It surprised noone when Osama Bin Ladin and his group of religious fanatics continued to operate out of Afghanistan.

The Bush administration is full of the dolts that gave us the problems in Iraq and Afghanistan; Rumsfeld and Cheney being the two worst of them. When confronted with proof of it they brush it off as if it's inconsequential or act as if they don't remember it. They took the worst thing that's happend to the US in the past 100 years and tout it as Bush's greatest success and how it "helped him find his voice". They tried to tie 9/11 to Iraq even though the CIA and Wesley Clarke were screaming that it was Al Qaeda. Then when they can't make the Iraq link stick they reluctantly invade Afghanistan by proxy, by funding and supporting warlords who are just as bad as the Taliban but less successful. Then they leave the job half finished after promising us justice.


I've directed the full resources for our intelligence and law enforcement communities to find those responsible and bring them to justice.


I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority.”

Then they start trying to build a case for a war in Iraq. Which isn't surprising since Rumsfeld and his cronies in the PNAC have been foaming at the mouth for a second war in Iraq for over a decade. They refused to share this damning evidence that proves Iraq has WMD's. No photo's, no testimony under oath, no samples, nothing. They were banking on going into Iraq and finding tons of Al Qaeda camps and WMD's all over the place. They found squat. Then it turns out we were buying information from the people we isntalled as the Iraqi governing council, Colin Powell lied to the UN (Where are those trucks Mr. Hussein... oh the photo's were taken 10 years apart...), and Bush lied to the American people about how much it would cost and how long it would take.

I can't see how anyone could vote for Bush. I don't like Kerry but Bush is the worst president we've had since Nixon.

[Tilea]

Ya Bush lied to get us in a war(but Saddam did kill his own ppl with WMD's)...Personally if Saddam tried to assasinate my dad, I'd be pissed & out for his head too. On top of that we have Oil interests there.

That's your justification for sacrificing the lives of over 1000 US soldiers and counting, plus tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians??? Revenge because of daddy and oil??

[Azis]

No, that would never justify a war. A tomahawk or 3 giftwrapped for Saddam, i could see, but not a war.

Imho, Saddam needed to be out, but I think that Bush was wrong for starting this.

[Tarissa]

LMAO, who was responsible for the tower bombings in 1993? UNDER CLINTON's admin!!! (ya same guys)

I can't tell, is this in defense of or criticism of Bush, since a relatively minor attack occurred so early, and so many warnings were mentioned, but no action was taken?




Lets face it, no matter who wins, people will hate the U.S.A. We will always have fucktards that want us to burn in hell. If ANY of you think that Kerry or any other canidate in the next 20-30 years will change that...well here is your wake-up call for you.


Have you read about why those countries hate us?



Ya Bush lied to get us in a war(but Saddam did kill his own ppl with WMD's)...Personally if Saddam tried to assasinate my dad, I'd be pissed & out for his head too. On top of that we have Oil interests there.


This is just embarassing.



As for calling up reserve troops? ...Ya...thank Clinton, cause we had one hell of a military coming out of the cold war with Regan.


And we certainly could sustain that military, right?



Economy being blamed on Bush? Are you kidding me? If us Americans could have went about our normal lives after 9/11 we wouldn't have seen any* downfalls to the economy during Bush's 4 years...but NO...we all stopped traveling, stopped spending, and WE...the consumers of the U.S. did it to ourselves.


Now this is martydom. It's the American people's fault that our economy plummeted. Oh, those damn people! What about the economic policy of the current administration? What about rising oil costs, with oil being a metric for standard of living as well as quality of life? Consumer confidence is at an all time low, right?



I dunno, for a guy that has 3 purple hearts, you would think that the man would have voted to get our guys body armor...but he did not, and I think that says just about all we need to know about how this man will run our military and forieghn relations...without a backbone.


When you hear stuff on TV, do you research it to make an informed opinion, or do you shoot from the hip?

http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx@docID=177.html

http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx@docID=177.html



Bush is not the best man for the job, I will admit that, but Kerry is WAY too shady to be the MOST powerful man in the world.


This is a matter of opinion, and I'll leave it at that, but tell me, what exactly makes Bush NOT shady?



The best thing we could do for the United States, if we ever want a good man/woman leading our country...is to put a salery cap on the presidency~

The President makes hardly any money from "salary". Book deals and private interest groups campaigning for "favors" brings in the majority of the income . In this case, power is money.

[Tarissa]

http://www.votebyissue.org/wbur/issues.aspx?q=1

[Andriana Duskrose]

All I have to say is this:

Bush is a Dick,
Kerry is a Pussy,
Terrorists are Assholes.

I think we need a Dick!

I totally understand where the Anti-Bush thinkers are coming from, but lets please be careful about trading Bad for Weak.

IMHO

You had me at Dicks fuck Assholes.

America, fuck yeah!

[Eomer]

Wesley Clarke

I think you meant Richard Clarke, Thuggo. Point still stands!


Have you read about why those countries hate us?

Wait wait, I know this one! Because they hate freedom!


As for calling up reserve troops? ...Ya...thank Clinton, cause we had one hell of a military coming out of the cold war with Regan.

This is funny. On one hand, Clinton apparently decimated the military. On the other hand, this same military only a year after Clinton left office waged an extremely successful war in a country where superpowers have gone to be embarassed for centuries, with an incredibly small force. Same goes with Iraq. Both military campaigns were actually extremely successful, the aftermaths much less so.

So which is it? Did Clinton destroy the military? If so, why then was it able to in the space of 18 months invade and decapitate two governments of two countries with casualties in the dozens or low hundreds? Make up your mind, already.

[Zappo]

All I have to say is this:

Bush is a Dick,
Kerry is a Pussy,
Terrorists are Assholes.

I think we need a Dick!

I totally understand where the Anti-Bush thinkers are coming from, but lets please be careful about trading Bad for Weak.

i didnt know choosing to fight in nam shows weakness.
then after seeing it was a a fruitless war(maybe you think it wasnt?)--become vocal and speek up about it.

i think dodging things, so people you never meet take your place and die is much better.
4 more years!!!
4 more years!

[Tarissa]

All I have to say is this:

Bush is a Dick,
Kerry is a Pussy,
Terrorists are Assholes.

I think we need a Dick!

I totally understand where the Anti-Bush thinkers are coming from, but lets please be careful about trading Bad for Weak.

IMHO

Wow. Why invent your own opinion when people can feed you ready made terms that are far easier.

Why is Bush a dick? And why is Kerry a pussy? Wait, is it because he spoke up about vietnam? I suppose the kids at Kent state are pussies too. And what do you think of Vietnam anyway?

And why do you think people become "terrorists"? It's a desperate idiology that fights against military forces when in a conventional war it has no chance of winning. It's desperate, cruel, and the only way such people fight back.

But I suppose this is D&D and we should just call them chaotic evil and join forces and swing our righteous freedom bats and save the earth.

God, the fact that the Canadians here are more educated on our political situation than Americans is embarassing. (Not because you're Canadain of course, you get what I'm saying)

Why is it that I see all the Bush supporters with talking point generalities but I rarely see the Kerry supporters with such? Maybe I should just look harder, but seriously?

[Azis]

hmmm...



When you hear stuff on TV, do you research it to make an informed opinion, or do you shoot from the hip?

I don't live in Texas, so there will be no shooting from "The hip"

Kerry voted NO on S.1689. In this bill there was $300,000,000 for improved body armor for our troops. His own Democrats outvoted him and Edwards 37 to 11, the overall vote was 87 for to 12 against.
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=108&session=1&vote=00400 (http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=108&session=1&vote=00400)
S.1689 Summary
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d108:SN01689:@@@D&summ2=m&
S.1689 Detail
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c108:S.1689:



And we certainly could sustain that military, right?

Yes, I think we could. With 1.4million troops today, we are at 3.1% GDP. If we go back up to the numbers we had during the first gulf war, 2million, then we would be right around 4.1% GDP. Thats for abit over 600,000 troops. It may not sound like much, but we fought the first gulf war with just over 600,000 troops.
http://www.va.gov/oaa/pocketcard/gulfwar_summary.asp
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/2003/cb03-ff04se.html

I do think that Kerry is too shaddy to be Pres, or he would do something as simple as sign his Military Form 180, release of his military records to the public. But he hasn't. Did Kerry get booted from the military? Maybe...maybe not, but the people John Kerry served with are calling him out. His book doesn't match his statements over the years, and Military grunts to Rear Admerals are shouting BS.
http://www.nationalreview.com/murdock/murdock200408201031.asp

Now I don't believe everything I read but, coming from the mouths of the men that served with him...seems like Kerry is hiding from his past. Here are some video's, I find the first purple heart story shocking to say the least.
http://www.swiftvetsandpows.com/

With so much of his run for pres being based on him being a war hero, I'd like to see his military records. People that have made it to the Oval Office before him have released thier records without batting an eye, but Kerry might just roll the dice and ride it out.

[Kattoo Tacit]

:rolleyes:

[Llain]

Azis, look at that link you posted about voting no to body armor. the only time armor is mentioned in the bill is in reference to armored vehicles, it doesn't mention body armor anywhere in the bill. and it doesnt give a specified amount to the armored vehicles, it just says that it calls for a reevaluation of armored vehicle needs by an army commander or whatever to be taken from an already existing iraqi freedom fund....

[Andriana Duskrose]

Tarrisa and Zappo (and anyone else for that matter), before you go crazy ninja ball-buster style all over Lilrith, go see Team America: World Police eh~ ;)

[Tilea]

I don't understand why Bush even HAS supporters. The man has pretty much failed at everything he's ever done in life. His failed oil company, his failed presidential administration and so on.

The CIA told his people in NO uncertain terms that the al queda had operatives in the US learning to fly commercial planes so that they could be used as weapons, but they ignored it. It's not their fault that the attack was planned, but it's certainly their fault that it succeeded. Why do you have intelligence if you don't want to listen to what they tell you?

Bush's amazing ability to try to sound intelligent when he has to do his own speaking, yet failing spectacularly at every turn. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice... .. can't.... can't fool me again!". I'm sure we've all heard that one. There are books out here in Canada that are nothing but quotes of Bush making himself sound like a fool.

The fact that he has such little regard for your constitution. He thinks he's above it, he thinks his own personal religious beliefs come before a constitution that the government is sworn to uphold. Hello?

He was nominated to lead his party based largely on his stance against gay union and marriage. Now he is supporting gay union because he knows he needs votes. When asked, "are you now going against the stance that won you your nomination?". Bush's reply was simply one word : "Yes". And then he turns around and calls Kerry someone who will say anything to get elected.

He lied about Iraq to go to war there. Over 1000 US soldiers are dead because of this. God knows how many innocent civilians within Iraq are dead because of this.

And yet, next Tuesday, some of you will still vote to put him back in office....

[Tarissa]

I'm reading "Unfit for Command" now actually. So far, I've read about 75% anecdotal evidence, so I felt like I was sitting around a campfire with a bunch of old men who didn't like a guy. They conveniently quote people when they say something bad about Kerry, but then fail to quote that same person when they say overwhelmingly positive things about him.

Perhaps I'm failing at my own attempt at pragmatism. Maybe I am simply a victim to whatever ingrained beliefs I have, just like the people I dislike who support Bush. But I sure think I'm resting my case on all of the evidence I was presented rather than my gut reaction on our so-called "War Against Terror".

[Trazz]

This is what I base my decisions on. http://www.issues2000.org/John_Kerry.htm

[Vidmer]

I don't understand why Bush even HAS supporters.

Most people voting for Bush are pure-partisans or scared of Kerry it seems.

[Eomer]

First off: He knows whats up...I mean what is really up. Maybe They/He aren't telling us, but at least They/He really know.

Seriously, wow. I mean really, wow. Do you still wear a diaper? Or have you finally graduated to whiping your ass? Because to me, someone so willing to hand over responsibility and just remain in blissful ignorace probably wouldn't mind just grabbing a fresh pampers every now and then. It's just easier that way.

"Hey Lilrith, you hear that 100,000 Iraqis are dead because of the war, the FBI is investigating the Pentagon for the sweetheart contract awarded to Cheney's former company to the tune of $2.5billion so far, and that because of the incompetence and lack of planning in Iraq it's a good bet that most of the Iraqi army's equipment is now in the hands of lunatics?"

"Don't worry man."

"What, why?"

"He knows."

"Who knows?"

"Bush"

"What the hell are you talking about."

"He knows man." *looks serious* "He knows."

[Forty]

hmmm...
I don't live in Texas, so there will be no shooting from "The hip"


Just fyi, a real Texan wouldn't shoot from the hip either....just the pretend ones do. And you know who is a pretend Texan.

[Azis]

<3 40! Actually I have lived in Texas b4 & its one of my fav places in the US.

As for Eomer...

Everyone will feel the way they feel, vote the way they will vote, could atleast be decent about it.

[Trazz]

Not sure why the personal attacks.. but knock it off.

[Thuggo]

This isn't a flame forum. Be nice or this thread get's deleted.

[Vinen]

I cant in good couninces (I suck at spelling....) vote for either of them. Both of them are idiots, both of them will ruin the country. I wanted Dean ; ;.

If I was to vote id probably vote bush but... thats just because there is somthing about Kerry I really really really dont like, I dont know what it is though.

[Forty]

I meant he knows the truth.

I'm sure he knows the truth as well...but he decided to attack Iraq anyway.

Maybe the CIA, The US weapon inspectors, the UN weapon inspects, countless number of countries, had it wrong? Naw...I think Bush and the gang new exactly what they were doing. And it had nothing to do with saving the US, Iraq or the world from the untold horrors of SH or terrorism.

[Azis]

/duck

I really wanted to see Dean after his speech that got him burned. I liked him before, but I really like how fired up he got during that fateful speech. I think we need someone "real" in office, not just a suit, Mr. prim & proper crap. Dean had heart from what I personally saw, I would have voted for him.

I don't fall under ass or ele, but I will vote with my gut feeling as well. My gut feeling atm is that Kerry will either leave our troops hanging in Iraq, or leave the Iraqies hanging...we already left those people hanging the first gulf war, I honestly hope we don't do it again.

[rufnuf]

Well i'm one of the guardsman/reservist that was activated for the war and was over there a few weeks prior, during and a few weeks post iraqi freedom. Thankfully i'm in the air national guard so my services weren't require after the war. So yea i know some people that have been over there and put in harms way. Not to many of us are upset about it either. My whole unit volenteered. Husien needed to be taken out of power. When around 1 % of the population in iraq holds all the wealth and the rest is poverty stricken fighting to survive, and the country leader offers 20,000 dollars to families of someone willing to be a suicide bomber that just strikes me as sick and twisted. He was just pushing and tuanting us to come after him he didn't think we had the balls, and we did.

And seriously lilrith touched on something very important that if we vote bush out were going to be show the world we have no backbone and just open us up to further attacks.

But anyways i'de like to see us pull out of there and just cut our losses. It made me sick when i was over there helping to save a people that didn't want to be saved. When they hated us for butting in. They would rather live with tyrany. Was a shock and made me ask why do we bother. I'de rather us go back into a self sufficient nation again and not trying to have our hands in things. Just take all that welfare and help we've been passing out throughout the world and invest it back in our country and let the other countries realize how good of a thing they had. All our welfare has just gotten us hated by more and more people. Some people will say were arogant americans, I treat everyone with respect especially strangers don't ask me why but i do, some don't but every country has it's assholes. No the real reason they don't like is cause we give them advice and tell them where to spend the money were giving them. I've learned no one likes to be told what to do just look at our guild or any guild. People think they to good for advice 90% of the time even when it's constructive and put in a non threating way. I'm under the view though if your taking handouts from someone you should kiss there ass cause they don't have to help you out. That's my take on foriegn policy my two cents worthless as they are.


I think kerry is bad news. I'm a vetran and for the pure fact that vetrans held a rally against him in washington really strikes a cord. Can you think of a better informed group of people then vetrans that have fought for this country ? Theyve invested themselves in this country and are sure as hell going to vote for what's best for the country and stay up to date on the goings on in the world and the candidates. The military pretty much shuns kerry. He's made a moquery of our system , lieing and making up reports to get medals to make him look good and get him the job he has today. If you were a bussiness owner and someone gave you a false resume what would you do with that person. Anyways I too wish we had a couple stronger candidates that stood for ideals and integrity that we want this country to stand for. Those kind of people are eaten up and weeded out way too early in our countries politics:(

[Forty]

My wife is a vet, and she's pro-Kerry.

Just because someone should be taken out of office/leadership doesn't mean you go bustin down the door. There are certain international laws that say that's not a nice thing to do. Yeah, we should have done it right the first time, but that doesn't mean you basically lie to the world and make shit up just to provide yourself with an excuse to go again 'cause that's not nice either.

[Zarxen]

And seriously lilrith touched on something very important that if we vote bush out were going to be show the world we have no backbone and just open us up to further attacks.

On the contrary it might just open up several problems on many levels( not just attacks on your soil)

[Varran]

Well I liked Dean as well, but since some here have aleady brought up bush's wife vs kerry's wife, I'm sure that gulf would have widened if Dean had've won the nomination.

Dean's wife is a doctor, a doctor who chose to stay at her practice and help her patients and take care of her kids who were in school during the nomination run. She elft it towards the very end because a lot of people were slamming her in the press because she wasn't at her husbands side while he ran for the nomination.

I'll repeat that.... there were people that were pissed that a doctor didn't choose to leave her patients and her children to help her husband win an election.

She made the choice to help people she made a commitment to and got slammed for it and in the whole process made her husband look bad in people's eyes because they felt she should be by his side.

And as for this whole "the world will see us as weak if we vote Bush out" nonsense: the world is not full of idiots. They know it is an election, and they know there are more than just one or 2 issues that will decide who wins. IF Bush loses it will not point to American weakness. The country changes leaders every 4 years (roughly) and the rest of us know that.

To give you an example... IF Bush were to win and the world gets all nasty over the next couple years, would it make America appear weak if he doesn't win the election after this one (the election he can't even win due to term restrictions)? If the world is still in the same situation it is now would Bush have to remain president until he dies to prevent the country from appearing weak?

That is the lame argument, the grasping at straws attempt to frighten the weak into voting him in strategy. "OH MY GOD... if we don't elect Bush Americans will be the world's kicking boy and we will be terrorized by all the bullies on the block". BULLSHIT. Regardless of who leads the country, the rest of the world is scared by America. You have a nuclear arsenal and a deadly military. The problem is, the current leader feels it necessary to pull his dick out and wave it in the rest of the world's face... "See... see how big our dicks are... we run the world... stop pissing us off and do what we say or we'll invade your country... what, we have no proof of your activities.... so what, we'll just make something up that we know is a lie and invade you anyways.... hahahahahahahahahaha"

At least with Kerry there is a chance at America being part of the rest of the world and not it's classroom bully.

[Gemmi]

http://www.boomchicago.nl/Section/Videos/BoomChicagoVotingMachine

[Torrid]

If anything, voting Bush out shows the power of democracy and how it empowers the people to remove leaders they find unfavorable.

Also, I really hate how people exclaim how so and so voted nay for this bill or that bill. This is completely misleading, as bills are almost never about just one issue. It is common practice to tack on unfavorable clauses into popular bills to sneak them by.


When around 1 % of the population in iraq holds all the wealth and the rest is poverty stricken fighting to survive

Funny you should mention this. Coincidentally, the number one issue I have with humanity is the fact that hundreds of millions of HUMAN BEINGS are starving to death right now, and there are how many billionaires? Yeah, and which country has control of the most wealth again? Oh, right. And before you claim we don't owe our wealth to the poorer nations, stop and look for the "made in X" tags on the shit you buy and have a chat with Kathy Lee first.

[Amadis]

I will elect for Bush primarily on the Facts stated above.

Cute. I recommend doing some research on how other historical retards were portrayed by their propaganda machines before the populace realized how awful they were. Hitler's a great example of this...he looked *great* on paper. Got his country out of a huge recession, lowered unemployment, you name it.

I think South Park said it best this week. This election's between a giant douche and a shit sandwich, and we'll have to vote for one or the other. I'm choosing the giant douche (Kerry). :(

[BurnemWizfyre]

With voter turn out at a all time low, im being even more of a american by not voting.

[Seraphina]

Kerry or Bush, it probably won't make too much of a difference. I just hope nobody will forget who the real enemy is.

[Varran]

gnomes?

[Lydia]

I just hope nobody will forget who the real enemy is.

And who might that be?

[Tarissa]

And who might that be?

I tried that once man, it didn't work.

[Lothbah]

And who might that be?

http://www.sobrevidanuclear.blogger.com.br/Bush%20Sauron.jpg


Save the Shire on November 2nd!

[Vidmer]

And who might that be?

The French! /half kidding

As for the real answer, read "The Clash of Civilizations" by Samuel P. Huntington.

[Buazag Bonesteel]

The enemy, as ever, is the general overall ignorance of humanity. It's unfortunate that pretty much ever since there were people in the world smart enough to rub two sticks together to make fire; there were also people in the world who felt the need to prove their superiority over some other group of people for a multitude of reasons and to use force in doing so.

I'm not so naive as to say that violence is never the answer. Certain things should be stood up for. The innocent and the weak should be protected. Evil should be fought. People like Hitler, Osama Bin Laden, and others like them should be opposed. But if it wasn't for the aforementioned ignorance of humanity then people like that would have no true power and thus the need for massive bloodshed wouldn't exist. Because of the politics of the few in power, the masses that populate the opposing sides buy into the retoric that those on the "other side" are somehow beneath them, evil and worthy of destruction. We have wars and the young men and women of opposing nations go off to fight and die. Men and women that in truth are pretty much the same. They have families and jobs and loved ones. All that really separates us is geography and culture......which should be celebrated not used as a basis for killing each other.

Think about what runs through your mind when you see someone of arabic descent wearing a turban these days. Somewhere I think it was written once by someone kinda smart, that all men(and it was old but hopefully he meant women too) are created equal. If we, and I mean the global we, ever manage to truly believe that, then we will really be making a huge step forward for humankind. I wish that I believed I'd be alive to see it.

And no I'm not really a pacifist who thinks that you should never stand up for what you believe is right. I just feel that it's important to really think about those beliefs before you decide that someone deserves to die for them.


*edit* Oh yeah, I'm voting for Kerry. Although I am embarrassed to admit that I haven't managed to keep up with all of the issues going on politically so my choice might not be as well informed as it should be......school and work have kept me freaking busy lately =/ From what I saw in the presidential debates though, Kerry seems to have more of a handle on just what he is going to do as president as opposed to trying to ride America's fear of terrorism into the white house. I don't agree with everything he proposes......but it would be damn difficult to find a candidate that I DID agree with 100%.

[Zappo]

!

This isn't a flame forum. Be nice or this thread get's deleted.

[Eomer]

lol, gotta love the (go back to Canada) part!