Gatekeeper mobs / Adding new guilds to rotations.

[Sirensa]

Long long ago when we first started really honing in on a formalized rotation, I suggested something along the lines of removing someone from the rotation after 3 passes/fails in a row.

Thanatoz just suggested something about requiring successful kills on certain mobs before allowing new guilds to be added to other mob rotations. Gatekeepers. Similar to how Aaryonar is the gatekeeper to ntov.

I think this is something we need to discuss and work out. While I am all about someone getting a chance on a new mob - in theory - I don't want to waste time having them fail repeatedly when someone else is there and ready and willing to kill.

There is little enough for us to kill as it is already.

So I'd like to see here what some others feel about doing the 3 pass/fail and you're out rule, plus some sort of gatekeeper stipulations for starting a new guild on a rotation.

Obviously if we used 3 strikes and you're out it would not be indefinately, but no one wants to sit around doing nothing night after night until our small pitance of a mob shows up as our turn on a 12039 guild rotation.

I know it sounds harsh - personally I would like extremely stringant rules because I am sick of being nice and sharing and giving everyone the shot they deserve no matter who they are or what their capabilities are. Quite frankly, not everyone deserves a shot at X uber mob, that is something you need to EARN.

[Rezz]

The 3 fails/passes and you lose your rotation spot for a round works for me, it lets the guild trying it know they need to either refine their tactics or upgrade their gear before trying it, and it lets the guilds that can kill it do so. Back when L`Malla was learning the new unslowable CT, we failed 3 times in a row, then finally killed it after acquiring some gear. If we weren't able to try it the 3 times we wouldn't have learned, and therefore we'd have taken much longer to learn how to do it.

While I do like the idea of Gatekeepers, not every guild is capable of killing every mob the same way. No flames to either side, but Hoss and Vindication kill mobs with a small concentration of extremely well equipped members, ML kills stuff with a larger group of slightly less well equipped members. In the end, mobs still die, just two different ways of doing it. Mobs such as Sontalak and Klandicar are easier to zerg than they are to tactically kill. Period, it's just the most painless and sure way to do them. Mobs such as Tormax require more tactics and skill as opposed to zerging, it's just easier to kill them that way. Either way can kill the mob, but some are most definately easier to kill one way than the other, and other mobs are vice a versa.

An example of this type would be Sontalak. Vindi, Hoss and L`Malla were unable to kill him solo while ML was farming him (yeah, I'm sure we all had it in us, but we didn't, so it's moot) Yet Hoss and Vindi were doing Nwing ToV at the time, and L`Malla was still working on gearing up and killing zland as we could. Vindication had killed every other ST key mob but Kland and Sont solo, was almost clearing Nwing ToV, had owned the west wing mobs as well as the east wing before they were able to kill sontalak solo. L`Malla had killed Zlandicar, but nothing else really but statue and CT when we were able to kill sontalak. Hoss had cleared Nwing, cleared most of ST several times and had killed basically everything else in the game minus yelinak before they were able to drop sontalak. How would a Gateway mob be set up for this type of fight? As you can see, all 3 guilds were able to kill the mob at different steps in their guild's progression, would it have been fair to Hoss to say,'Well, you haven't killed Klandicar, so no sontalak for you'? it's a different kind of fight, hard to gauge and hard to say which is the right/wrong way for doing it. Anyway, I'm rambling.

If we are gonna do gateway mobs, they'd have to be like, pretty generalized. Such as, if you can kill CT, you can take shots at Dain, Velk and Vindi. Kill any of those and you can take shots at the ST key mobs, kill any of the ST key mobs and you can take shots at ToV nameds. (west wing dragons, Doze, Nwing) Old world/kunark mobs shouldn't require gateway mobs because they are poosae. Tormax and Yelinak are extremely high end encounters, imo if people don't dent them on a try they won't remain on the rotation for very long, 3 passes/fails or not. If you can't even scratch a mob your not likely to waste your guild's xp mindlessly throwing yourself at it. The above kinda outline would be fair imo.

Oh, and so it doesn't ruffle any feathers, the term zerg to me means quantity over quality, not a lack of tactics, simply a lack of the same level of gear. No offense to any guild I mentioned, just an easy example of why gateway mobs have to be extremely generalized.

[Yendii]

Isn't it already in the rules that if you pass/fail on a mob 3 times in a row you must sit out 1 rotation?

I'm not sure we should tell people what order they need to kill things in, they should be able to figure out if they belong on a rotation.

[Sirensa]

Just to be a butthead...

Hoss had cleared Nwing, cleared most of ST several times and had killed basically everything else in the game minus yelinak before they were able to drop sontalak.
Actually - we dropped sontalak solo in-house long before anyone else did. We just didn't do it again. =p

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Ok well regarding 3pass/fail and you're out - maybe we should refine this or at least enforce it. How long are you out? Is one rotation cycle enough? Do you need to make a formal request to be re-added to the rotation or are you just skipped once?

Anyone else have thoughts?

[Grazel_VE]

Is there really a problem with guilds repeatedly failing mobs? The only times I can remember that happening, the guild voluntarily removed itself from the rotation.

Seems to me, we have many many more passes (e.g. guild too busy that night) than fails.

[Rohaise]

I don't think it's fair to control another guild's enjoyment of the game with these precise definitions.

As long as everyone gets a "turn" at a mob, and no guild(s) are permitted to monopolize a mob that other guilds want, I think we've done our job here.

Lining guilds up in an orderly fashion, based on a basic ruleset seems to work the best causing the least amount of strife.

Putting in "gatekeeper" mobs, and being the judges of what another guild is or is not capable of doing is not for us to decide.

After one or two tries you know whether you're capable of killing a mob or not. And if you're not, you're not going to keep wasting your time.


However, I would strongly support a measure removing a guild for one rotation if they "Pass" 3 times in a row. If you can't even get a force to attempt a mob three times, then you really are wasting everyone's time.


Summary:

- No one here is qualified judge another guild's capabilities. I could point out many errors in several of the posts above regarding the current and past endeavors of ML, Hoss, Vindication, and other guilds.

- Failing a mob is fine, eventually you'll get tired and move on, having gained knowledge, or you win and continue.

- Passing many times in a row is bad, does nothing for your guild, and only delays other guilds needlessly.