Igb -- Are You In Or Out?

[Lylala]

If we keep the IGB in place, NI will honor it. Let's find out who else is in favor of TRYING to make this work...and I guess if Hoss remains silent, we will assume that they have gone FFA, which their behavior thus far would indicate anyway.

ML has mentioned a willingness to host the IGB in the future...do we need to go ahead and move on this or...? The longer we stay unorganized and in 'limbo' or whatever we are now, the bigger the mess will be...

/sigh

Also...are we gonna keep the rotation schedule updated as best we can until a decision is reached?

[Quintall_ML]

ML is trying to adhere to the rotations, and is in favor of keeping something like the IGB working.

Given Vind's departure from it, and Hoss' Sleeper Awakening (which they themselves called months ago for any guild doing such a thing to be removed from the IGB), this particular version may not be around much longer. ML has something semi in place already from back when the Seekers board folded, which could likely be pulled up again.

[Sirensa]

and I guess if Hoss remains silent, we will assume that they have gone FFA, which their behavior thus far would indicate anyway.

Sleeper issue aside...

I do not see how one guild can be FFA while others maintain a rotation.

If yesterday's episode in ThurgB for Hoss' Dain was any indication, it is not possible to maintain a rotation with one guild killing anything it pleases.

Picture the HYPOTHETICAL scenario...

It's Hoss turn for NTOV..
ML turn for Tormax, Yelinak
L`Malla turn for Cazic

Vindication en route to NTOV

Hoss says, "help us IGB our mob is being stolen by the evil empire Vindication"

ML says, "sorry we have Tormax and Yel and cannot afford to pass, miss, or have them stolen"

L`Malla says, "sorry we have to start clearing fear to get our Cazic"

IG says, "woohoo free dozekar - back off gnomes this dragon is mine!"

Night Kids says, "we'd come save your NTOV Hoss but we're sleeping!"

etc..

Soo ok, lets pretend ML did decide to help.. then what? the next day Tormax is still ML's? What if NTOV is lost, then next time it is Hoss' again?

While it is feasible to be neighborly, a full out rotation system will not work with one or more guilds ignoring it.

[Lozer Bloodpaizan]

Even though we are new to the IGB, we believe it is in the best interest of all parties involved to continue with this. CDO will support the new rotation.

[Quintall_ML]

Sleeper issue aside, in that scenario:

ML would come to N ToV to help.

L`Malla would likely come to NToV to help.

Once the issue was decided, honestly, Tormax and Yelinak are 1-2 hour runs each, and CT is 2-3 hours. Of those 3, if Vind was thwarted in n ToV, they'd likely try for Tormax and/or Yel, which means ML *might* lose one of them...or not, if L`Malla then went with us to those, leaving Vind with only CT and clearing PoF...which they'd likely hate, and L`Malla/ML could then zone in and finish the Plane and CT while they were still at the stone tower.

God I hate hypotheticals.

Anyhow, you're also assuming there's only L`Malla and ML willing to prevent Vind from running rampant on everyone. From personal experience, I can tell you that there's many, many more that are willing to help anytime the issue arises.

Many more.

The biggest issue is getting people unfamiliar with each other and others' strats to work as well as a single unit does. And that's rapidly becoming less of an issue.

I don't know where Hoss stands here other than on the fence. From looking back, I'd have to be completely honest and say I really, really don't trust Hoss very much, Sleeper issue aside. There's too many times you've played *neutral* to one side, while giving tacit support on the other, and it remains to be seen if that's once again the case in this particular time of turmoil on the server. I'm going to quote something here, ugh; "Either you are with us, or you are against us."

There is no spoo.. fence.

[DanstHoned]

cant support a rotation that the guild hosting busts ... we have had very good relations with hoss imo and i was surprised that the sleeper was awakened ... but it did no use in whinning about it but again its hard to agree to a rotation that every once in awhile people jus do what they feel is best for their guild despite what they ve said in the past or the igb says

i think we couldve done a good job with the igb rotation even with vindi gone ... they can only be in so many places at once ... if they beat a guild to a mob more than once designate a clean up crew to get their first and help the guild that couldnt mobilize fast enough /shrug just an idea

enough rambling .... im not flamin hoss or vindi but this board is done ... too many guilds are not supporting or tryin to but not sure if they should spawns are bein forgotten

so Honed is FFA ... not that it matters on Tormax and shit like that
also we wont train or move on any spawns that guilds are movin too

but if ML and L`Malla can come up with a neutral board Honed will honor that

[Lylala]

To coin another phrase...
Shit, or get off the pot.
Not the most elegant of phrasing...but it gets the point across.
Is Hoss going to continue to be a cooperative member of the IGB?
A simple yes or no will do very nicely. No shades of gray, blue, or pink...YES or NO.

Please be straight and honest on this so the rest of us can try to pick up the pieces and move on from this.

[Sirensa]

Is Hoss going to continue to be a cooperative member of the IGB?

A simple yes or no will do very nicely. No shades of gray, blue, or pink...YES or NO.

I think my previous post explained our concerns with how an IGB will function.

You will remember, the Dain that ML, L`Malla and Vindcation fought over last night was Hoss's mob.

I am not sure I like that ML/L`Malla can FFA on our mob in the name of protecting it from FFA guilds such as Vindication. What is the difference.

FFA is FFA whether you dress it up with a pretty title or not.

And yes, Hoss could have gotten involved in the ThurgB mess yesterday - but with 3 big guilds already there, last thing we were going to do is send in our full troops.

Why must we shit or get off the pot? Why do we have to blindly follow the ML dicatate? Why do we have to go FFA? Why can't we just mind our own business and stay out of the arguments and pissing contests you *mature* guilds have been getting into of late?

I choose the fence.

[Baramos1]

First of all, Dain wasn't Hoss's MOB. Hoss doesn't have a MOB, because Hoss said that anyone who wakes the Sleeper doesn't have a right to rotations.

Next, and more to the point, I keep hearing the argument that "Other servers are FFA" as a reason that Druzzil should be.

Just because other servers have selfish assholes running the show, doesn't mean we have to accept that ours does. In addition, we have the power to do something about it. The only question is our resolve to do so.

Wars over spawns way back when created tensions, problems, inter-guild wars, and mayhem.

This is why rotations began in the first place.

This is a Good Thing. (TM)

Forming an alliance with like-minded guilds, who think it's wrong that selfish dickheads who care only about VOP and phat lewt and would trample everyone else, is in the best interests of our guilds, and the best interests of the server.

There was nothing "ballsy" or "gutsy" about what Vindication did in ToV, after they for months reaped the benefits of IGB rotations, rebuidling their guild whose membership dwindled to around 10 people.

It was simply cowardly, selfish, and wrong. They not only accepted the implied social contracts of the IGB, they embraced them.

Their attitude that "VI says it's OK" is just evidence of an immature leader, and mindless followers who have so much time invested in VOP, that they don't care about ethics and honor.

The same is true of Hoss, regarding the Sleeper.

Yes, ethics and honor do exist, even in a virtual world.

The question is whether we, as a group of guilds, are willing to do something about it.

The beginning of the answer is, as shown yesterday, that ML and L`Malla aren't going to put up with any Vindication SHIT but are going to fight to make sure that we get our fair share of spawns, even if it means blocking Vindication at every turn.

There will be successes and failures, to be sure, but there is no reason for any of us to accept what Vindication did to L`Malla, and thus the server.

It was wrong, and if you don't see it or understand it, you have no place on an IGB forum.

FFA is not an option for the Old World. Luclin may be another story.

Yes, Hoss, you need to decide if you're willing to be a part of the IGB. I think most of us recognize the truth of your statement that Vindication would have killed Ventani anyway.

In any case, bottom line is that ML will continue to endeavor to keep a rotational system going, and welcomes all guilds who wish to participate and abide by it.

If/when Vindication wants to return they'll have already paid the penalty, I expect.

If not, well then, we'll be FFA anyway, and it will be moot.

Bara

edit: removed needless flame

[Andaas]

I kind of prefer the fence myself (like that comes as any big surprise).

The one thing of note in all of this is how competing guilds take action against one another. I only heard about the Dain incident second hand, however, from most reports that I have heard (and this from Hoss members that were in the zone), it doesn't sound like the IGB force proceeded in a manner that would not have been frowned upon by a GM.

If the ML/L`Malla forces were waiting at the zone entrance area, then I am mistaken, but from what it sounds like, you all were down the well and waiting for Vindication to fail (and anyone who has fought Dain knows how much trouble it is to run past people sitting in that passage after getting touched). That sounds like you were creating a disruption to their attempt.

Free for all does NOT mean that our guilds will all participate in the retarded races to Zlandicar that happened last year. Guess what, if Vindication beats you to a mob you want, you should suck it up and find something else to kill.

I am not lying when I say that FFA is probably the worst thing that can happen for Hoss. We are a guild that typically raids in PST evening hours - we will LOSE in a FFA. However, I will not participate in disrupting raids and/or racing within a zone to a single mob. It proved childish and stupid when it happened almost a year ago, and its childish and stupid now.

[Lylala]

I for one vote that we get this new IGB up and going pronto, with or without Hoss. My guild is chomping at the bit wanting to know if we're all FFA or what...we need to start updating the rotation schedule list again etc etc...dont know about ya bigger guilds, but my mid-sized guild is getting pissy in the meantime :( I'm tired of MemberA says to your guild, "Are we all FFA or what?"

If the rest of us want to keep some semblence of an IGB, as Nike says, let's JUST DO IT. Purty plz?

[Dlgoth Riknueth]

What's the point? Your not going to have a rotation set up with half the guilds adhearing to it and the other half going FFA. It's one of the other.

I for one hate the idea FFA, but it's done, so it's time to deal.

As for what happened yesterday, well other than last Saturday, I've been MIA for a good two and a half weeks, so I wasn't there, Don't know first hand, but I agree with Andaas 100% about it. If what's being said is what happened yesterday, than it's bullshit and absolutely unacceptable. I can assure you that had I been there, nobody with a L`Malla tag would have done anything that has been said was done.

[Lylala]

And one more thing...ML rep is the one who is saying that Hoss 'has no mobs' currently because of waking the sleeper...I am not happy that this happened, but it cant be taken back. If Hoss is actually considered to be NOT in rotations anymore, then Quint plz update the lists accordingly? Or if Hoss IS still in rotations, also plz update the lists accordingly.

This is all gonna go to hell in a hand basket if we dont pickup the ball and start running with it.

[Baramos1]

Problem is, that there will always be grey areas as happened at Dain yesterday.

Vind wasn't there in force, from my understanding. Naturally, they have a different story.

To use their logic, however, the GM saw things our way.

Vind has already started to encamp people at spawns 10-at-a-time to "hold" them. This is a bullshit tactic, and ML doesn't recognize it.

I'm sure there were people in Vindication who were angry yesterday, as I imagine there were people in L'Malla angry in ToV N, last week.

This is not news.

We all know what happens in FFA environments, as we've seen in the past. It's why we have rotations. It's why we have an IGB.

If Vindication is not willing to be a part of a fair rotation system, then they have to face the consequences of that decision, which may be very heavy lag, missed opportunites on spawns, and all the attendant nastiness that goes in FFA. They need to accept the consequence, grey areas and all.

They seem to thrive on this, so perhaps this is, indeed, the best thing for them.

ML is not out to punish Vindication, btw, but ML is absolutely out to ensure we get our fair share of spawns, and we will not be blocked by Vindication.

As for Hoss and the release of the Sleeper, I'm grudgingly willing to ignore that, since Vindication was so obviously after it.

Bara

[Lylala]

Ok. What do we do when Vindi does steal an IGB guild's mob? Say ML is up for Doze...Vindi steals it. Does it remain ML's turn on Doze until they are able to beat Vindi to it, or does the rotation keep rolling ? Neither way is all that great, but doesnt really matter so long as we all agree to one or the other. Ya could say that leaving it at ML's turn for Doze until they can beat Vindi to it would make the other guilds more apt to help out if needed.

Now if we can just get the rotation list updated =)

[Baramos1]

Lyala -

I don't know the answer to any of those questions.

Also, it's true I'm a rep of ML, but I passed the GL to Roh, so she will be the conduit for "last say" as far as ML's position on all of this.

I think it would be wise for each guild to have a single-point-contact in each of the guilds for "last-say" context, when dealing with this issue, and moving forward.


Bara

[Lozer Bloodpaizan]

Only way to get it resolved is to take action.

Who is going to host the new boards for those who want to continue the IGB?
What rules are we going by?
How are we going to deal with something like this in the future?

Sitting around complaining about someone doing something doesnt get the issue resolved. Granted, CDO is not in the "high-end" game as the guilds in question are are, but would still like to see this work to benefit us all. If the server goes FFA, that not only screws the guilds on the IGB, but those guilds who still reserve their raids, etc on the Druzzil Ro net.

Spend some time under water on a sumbarine, then get back with me about having someone train you or taking your mob. This is a freaken game, not the end of your life.

[Grazel_VE]

Andaas & Sirensa,

You've said Hoss will lose in an FFA.

I don't understand why you're sitting on the fence.

Sure, any IGB will have issues, but why not be part of getting the issues worked out? Wouldn't that be less grief than FFA?

[Xorshaik_VE]

Hi.. While my personal intended purpose here on behalf of VE may be more information conduit than voice of VE, I think there's something I am compelled to say..

Is this so different than when Seekers disbanded? In fact, are the actions of Vindi of late so different than those of Seekers of the past?

From my perspective, it seems the answer to these questions is that the present situation is not unlike situations of the past.. I know that's a generalization, but I probably don't have the info to be more specific, and it's not germane to the point..

The IGB and guilds ability to have some semblance of order, bumps in the road aside, is a distinguishing characteristic of Druzzil-Ro. It has survived, and I reckon that it should be just as capable of surviving the present situation, and personally I hope it does.

Is there really something that makes the present situation so different that IGB wouldn't survive where before it has survived similar adversity?

[Sirensa]

Originally posted by Grazel_VE
I don't understand why you're sitting on the fence.

Sure, any IGB will have issues, but why not be part of getting the issues worked out? Wouldn't that be less grief than FFA?
I thought this discussion here was part of getting the issues worked out?

Mass frenzy to ThurgB for Dain, trampling over other guilds is not.

The one proposal I have seen on how to "combat" Vindication on this server was to do exactly what was done last night in ThurgB. Mass multi-guild rush to beat Vindication to any mob they are setting up for. This is not a solution I like, nor one I would be willing to uphold.

(I commend ML for trying to come up with a solution to work FFA and an IGB calendar on the same server, as an easy solution is not something I personally see feasible)

Hoss has been told in a few posts here: You are either with us or against us. (aka - shit or get off the pot, sitting on the fence, etc) Well we don't know how the state of the server should be handled. We don't know if there is any right solution that will enable every guild to be happy killing whichever mob they please.

We DO know that we wish to avoid the direct trainings, stampedings and other unpleasantries that some other guilds on this forum have already been involved in.

I don't think the solution to this situation is as easy as "shit or get off the pot"

[Lozer Bloodpaizan]

The solution might not be easy, but unless everyone here is willing to step up to the plate and keep order about doing it, nothing is going to get done. You might have issues with the other guilds here, they might have issues with you, but by not doing anything about the IGB results into one thing, kaos.

The IGB, to me at least, was guilds who were proud that they could work things out, and get things done, TOGETHER. I was proud to finally have my guild to that stage in the game, to be a member of the IGB (sorta reminds me of the KGB when I say it now that I think about it, heh), and be able to take out some of these mobs that us who started out almost the EXACT same time this server was created. CDO didnt come from another server, didnt bring tons of people who have alot of time to commit to a game, we were created here, and take great pride in being one of the guilds on this rotation. Even if it is just for a mob or 2.

[Baramos1]

I see it as a bit simpler, Sirensa. That is, not simple, but not difficult, either. It just boils down to a matter of resolve, and solidarity.

If we can agree that FFA is not practical in the Old World (fights, mayhem), and if we can agree to communicate, and cooperate, we can end this stupidity within a couple weeks, tops.

Simply put, the war for FFA will be fought mainly in ToV N.

ToV N is VI's monument to phat lewt and greed, and Vindication wants to live there, and reap.

I believe that we should encourage Vind to adhere to an old-world rotation system, and I further believe that the only way to make our point is to limit the very thing that drives them (phat lewt), by playing the game according to their demands.

The following is from a very erudite member of ML (although not Erudite):

The best way to choke their inflow of loot is to cut them off from NToV. Yeli, Dain, THO, ITR, etc. are all one shot mobs - First guild to arrive in force wins and they are as likely to be there 1st as we are. However, NToV provides a unique opportunity to play position with them. They cant camp the whole wing because they simply do not have the people. If they arrive 1st and begin breaking we COH to the back 5 and get position. This is effectively what Vindi did to Malla twice and it was not considered leapfroging by the GMs involved. Position is everything in verant's PNP lets be smart and play position. Once Aary is dead we can move to Vyemm. If Vindi takes back 5 1st we can either choose to take the front or wait for them to move to Aary CoH behind and go for Vyemm/Vulak. We have the advantage of Mage power. If they wipe out we potentially can change position in NToV very quickly and use PnP to force the GMs to give us our shot at the mob. We have the people lets be smart about how we apply them.

FFA is all about winning NToV. Thats where the highest concentration of uber loot is. Lets own NToV. Once Vindi is limited to the single shot ubers they win in races and a few NToV dragons at best then FFA isnt very attractive.

=====

I believe the above is an accurate analysis.

[Quintall_ML]

I was there yesterday, and Dlgoth, I think you better chat more with your guildies than with Vind.

Wehn we arrived, Vind have 19 in zone, and were in pit /pull spot. We gave them warning, more than fair warning, and an HOUR in which more of their people arrived, to a total of about 27ish. They pulled, people were NOT in their way. They pulled more than they could handle, and didn't abort.

Dain wiped all thier melee, and was going for casters. joint forces engaged, saving them several deaths. To say the rest of the fight was ugly and disorganized would be like saying a Rose can be red.

I was in discussions with a guide almost the entire time, and nothing done there by the joint forces was in any more violation in his eyes, than what Vindication did in N ToV to L`Malla.

You'd think you would be pleased that they failed trying to do it again.

[Sirensa]

They cant camp the whole wing because they simply do not have the people. If they arrive 1st and begin breaking we COH to the back 5 and get position. This is effectively what Vindi did to Malla twice and it was not considered leapfroging by the GMs involved.

I agree that it is NTOV that will be the true weekly battleground. However, I am unsure as to how any guild can safely COH to the back 5 area since the addition of the patrolling mobs in both safe spots.

Seems whichever guild is set up for Aaryonar first gains the position. Unfortunately, camping there overnight does nothing to hold that position. And unless all of NToV is cleared in a day, the battle begins the next morning.

Am I wrong?

FFA in general has worked well for Luclin mobs to date. It really does boil down to NToV loot being the most sought after and where people will fight most adamantly.

[Baramos1]

Sirensa -

You are right about the pat, although (without going back to my board to look) I believe someone addressed that issue.

Quint can probably shed more light on it, one way or the other.

Even if we can't CoH to the back, the point is still the same, and that is to "Just say NO."

I have no problem taking ToV N first-in-force week after week, excluding Vindication, and helping to enforce an IGB friendly rotation.

After a few missed opportunities in ToV, I believe Vind would see their way back to IGB.

Rotations, particularly of ToV N, are the only fair way to run this server, and to keep folks who curse each other in the best of circumstances, from all-out riots and war.

It seems obvious to me.

But then, I play EQ to relax.

Bara

[Blambil_VE]

To answer the original question, VE is In.

I realize we don't represent the upper 1% of the server, so our viewpoint may not matter as much, but we're in.

And to say my little "piece", the only way that FFA will be destructive is if the rest of the server goes that way as well. If Vindication were be the ONLY guild doing FFA, they'd get tired of it after a while.

Remember when they were seekers, stole Ragefire, got hated, got sorry, came back?

No different, just slightly bigger scale.

Anyway, that's my 2cents.

[Saeadebe]

i have a headache.


We're in. although we're a small guild and our main rotated mobs are now obsolete, the IGB was very good to us. As someone who's played on pvp and true FFA servers i can say, IGB is what set Druzzil Ro apart and im sad to see it go this way.

Friends, (You know who you are.) You can count on DSO for backup anyday.

....


im gonna go to bed now.