Hi

[Andaas]

Ciner requested access to the IGB again to discuss some issues from last night... however, I felt that it was best to make something separate for now while things are figured out in that other forum still.

I gave access to most of the major guilds involved in the IGB, of course, my list of people with access isn't 100% accurate (as I've learned). So thus far, this includes the representatives of ML, Hoss, L`Malla, Vindication, Novus Invictus, Valient Elite, and Imperial Guards.

Anyway, at least Vindication has a place to speak to everyone else, heh. As I see it, that was one of the original intentions of the IGB - to be a place where guild officers/leaders could discuss guild issues out of the flames and trash talk that happens on public forums.

[Quintall_ML]

Fence.

[Andaas]

Hey.. its our fence and we like it here. :p

[Baramos1]

Hey Ciner -

I have one thing to say about your FFA.

Blow me.

Bara

[Grazel_VE]

/agree Baramos

[Rezz]

Hey, lets keep the pointless flames out, thanks. Now that I'm over the initial pissiness at Hoss and Vindication for their respective issues, it's back to buisness as normal. Fence or not, Hoss is one of the powers on Druzzil, so you may as well deal with it. Why would Hoss be on the fence? Lets make some educated guesses. Andaas has stated before a few times that Hoss isn't an early est raid guild, most their raids are in the afternoon/evening pst. That's the makeup of the guild and times that they can log in at to raid with the most raid capable numbers/class distribution. My guild is a lot like that, we don't get numbers in excess of 30+ before noon pst EVER and rarely before 2-3pm pst. If they were in favor of FFA, they couldn't do much because of their average log on time. If they were opposed to it as vehemently as ML and L`Malla (to an extent.. yesterday proved even a bloodthirsty bitchfest can end up with a fairly even distribution.. FFA or not) they couldn't exactly stop another guild from ganking spawns, theirs or someone elses for the same exact reason. Why make a decision when it doesn't really matter which way the wind blows?

So can we stop the pointless Hoss bashing? It solves nothing, does nothing but start problems and is immature at best. I'm not happy the sleeper was freed. I think that the covert operations at it were childish and the reasoning (beating vindication to a first) as equally childish. It's a moot point, there was enough concern that ML would free the sleeper that the IGB basically said "no stop don't do it!!" but it happened eventually, just a different guild. Sucks for the only other guild that hasn't farmed the zone into sheer boredom where twinks have primal and warder drops, it's not the end of the world, I'm just not happy about the way it was done. Regardless, it's done and overwith, bitching and moaning won't bring the warders back and as of yet that's the only one way script in the game of that magnitude so far.

Now, about Vindication. Day before yesterday's dain activities were wrong. The guilds there didn't break PnP in any way, but it was pretty petty. Yesterday's NToV dance was basically FFA. ML had the people that Vind lacked, and Vind backed out. Bitch, whine, call it zerging mobs, Vindication was beat under PNP to a spawn, yippee skippee. Hoss killed Torm and played with AoW. ML did NToV, Vind did Lendi and Dozekar, L`Malla did Yelinak and CT. Everyone killed shit. Instead of calling names, throwing back insults/flames or training each other over a game, lets stop and think. Why are the guilds that are definitely against FFA so pissed? Because Vindication broke IGB and is killing mobs that people felt they had equal rights to willy nilly. Why would we do something about it? Because we want things the way they were, and I'm sorry, Vindication is here to stay, so like Hoss, deal with it. Yes ML, this is pretty much directed at you and more than a little at myself. In order to return things to the familiar, we need to work out the differences and compensate each other for them.

Sorry, there is no sympathy for Vindication losing NToV, you guys both rushed and ML rushed it better. If the trend of morning rushes continue, Hoss and L`Malla won't be seeing much NToV. So you can see why I'm actually against this morning rush shit. Logging 20 people in the zone then logging them on after a patch and laying claim to the zone is as silly as logging on 60 and running them there to bowl over that other guild so they can't have it.

The benefit of having it rotated is that you don't have to worry about ML running in at 6 in the morning while you only have 10 people online and setting up 40ish people to kill aary. Besides NToV, were there really any heads bumping, because I know nobody gave a shit L`Malla killed CT and Yelinak. The problem is, and I mean this, the pattern is set on encounters like these. It's been proven rather thoroughly, ML can field more people in the morning than any other guild on Druzzil I guess, I don't even see 60 night kids on at that time. Vindication fielded the next largest with 30 or so (what a RL friend in vindication tells me. I have no clue how many you guys had, I'm just using vague numbers to hint at relative raid force sizes) and the rest of us were a bit further down the list.

Basically, I think a formal rotation for druzzil won't happen. Vindication thinks it's boring, and won't adhere to it if one is set up. ML has the people to conjest a single spawn every server pop. Hoss tends to set smaller goals that don't get in other guild's ways. L`Malla just kills what we can when we can. That is pretty much the state of things on druzzil atm for the higher end. As it was stated before in a few posts, the majority of spawns that were on the IGB were frequented by these guilds. Only those 4 guilds have been able to kill Lendi, CT, Dain, NToV, Sontalak, Klandicar, ST (with some minor discrepencies based on faction.. L`Malla killing Yelinak and hoss killing Tormax as opposites) The majority of the high end velious encounters. I think it'd probably be best if the majority of spawns were regulated as a type of unrotated. If Hoss kills tormax, they have to ask if anyone is interested before they kill the next spawn. And by interested, I mean ready to have a killing force ready in an hour or two, not 9pm that night before they go to bed. Priorities and all that. The only spawns I think should be rotated would be NToV. Yes, I know that's the catalyst for the majority of problems, but hear me out.

The reason vind jumped our spawn is because they feel 2 days is too long to spend in NToV. Granted, while I feel this is a little silly as Vindication itself took 3 turns of the full rotation to clear the zone once, and we had to clear the zone entirely in one day for our 3rd (in their eyes) But since the server is FFA, that's gonna happen anyway, the zone is reduced to a single day to clear. Would Vindication agree to rejoining rotations if this was made to a single day to clear for the rotation spot, and stick to it? This assures you'll get a NToV, because with the morning rush game as it is, nobody but ML will be getting NToV for awhile. And no, that doesn't set well with me at all. And with basically all other spawns as unrotated (I'll elaborate on which spawns I mean) by the guilds that have already proven capable of killing, this leaves a bit of freedom in what everyone can kill. Am I giving in? No, because this makes it better for my guild, but it also makes it better for all guilds than it is right now. Also, and I know NI, VE and IG aren't going to like this, I think we need to keep a few of the most wanted spawns secluded. Leave the "only because you can kill it now" arguements aside, they are moot and don't change anyone's feelings and only lead to more flames and stupid posts.

What I mean by secluded is this.. CT is secluded because only a few guilds can kill him, are able to kill him period. He's a different fight than your normal boss. Dozekar, Statue, Zland, Vindicator, hell even Tormax are all very straight forward fights. It doesn't take magic skills or l33ty strats to whack these guys, they are pretty up front. Tormax is a melee, Dozekar is a weak statue with an AE, statue is a joke, Vindicator is a melee, Zland is a melee with a breath weapon. There isn't much variation in the strats required to kill these. There is a good deal of difference in the way you approach the bosses the majority of guilds are most interested in. Basically, and this is what I am proposing. The only way a guild can get added to the semi-rotation of a mob is by it not being engaged in a timely fashion by any guild that is on the semi-rotation. Such as, Yelinak is up, ML is on it. Tormax is up, Hoss is on it. Statue is up, L`malla is on it. NToV is up, Vind is on it. But Sontalak and Dain are also up. Ml, Hoss, Vind and L`malla are busy with their respective spawns. That means any guild is free to run in and try any of the aformentioned mobs. When one of the 4 larger guilds approaches in force and asks you to leave, you leave. If you kill the mob (which will only happen when there is a sufficient lapse of interest to learn a mob or when a guild is powerful enough to overcome it on the first try or two) then you are now on that rotation. If you don't, then you aren't. Basically, it's all about priorities. And anyone that bitches about a guild killing something while they are otherwise occupied obviously didn't care enough about that something to go kill it. Ok, I ramble, and I'm runnin out of coffee. But you get the general idea. basically, stuff isn't rotated, it's done by interest. If a mob spawns and you aren't willing to drop everything to kill it, then you have no reason to complain if it dies while you are doing something else. And the more powerful/larger/zerger/skilled wtfever guilds can't bitch about newbies killin their spawns if they don't care enough to kill it. And that's not FFA either. Post some feedback on the proposals. I'm not a police officer, but I do play this game to have fun, and I'm willing to alter how I have fun a little if EVERYONE else is, so at least we are all havin fun.

[Rezz]

here's a quick summary for ya: Rotate NToV on a 1 day rotation so we don't all get banned for doing stupid things and leave the rest on a priority based system where other guilds can try a mob that none of the normal guilds on that semi-rotation can or want to engage in a timely fashion. Same goes for stuff you find out that spawns. If a mob spawns and you know when it spawned but nobody else on druzzil does, obviously nobody cares enough to check it, so whack away at it. Lets say my proposal is an extremely friendly FFA with a single real rotation.

This is so you can skip all my flame-retardent topic discussion ;p

Feedback, and yes Ciner, I would like yours as well.

[Thanatoz]

rezz i admit i did not read your entire post because it was far to long:) but you mentioned that everyone killed something last night and all were happy. This is true but how long do you think your going to like killing the same thing over and over because ML can assemble 40+ppl by noon in ntov?

This is all just gone wrong...i fail to see why anyone of you want to go ffa...even vindication cant be happy only ganking dozegimp and lend who take all a whopping 1hour to do. wow thats excitement. If ML really wanted to they could prevent any of you dump asses from seeing a mob in ntov ever again, but by all means you go on and "ride with your niggas".

Point is dro IS unique because you have 4 big superpower guilds all capable of clearing ntov in one night. What other server has this?

You all got more by being in the IGB then you ever will being in a FFA enviroment. Your to stupid to see it.

[Thanatoz]

ok just read the rest of your post...

basically if vind goes ffa and bullys ppl then there pricks..but if the big 4 rewrite the rules and be bullys its ok because l`malla is a bully now.

did i read that right?

[Rezz]

hah, guess I didn't explain it that well. I'll try it again. Basically, transfer the rotations that are up there now to a more leisurely style. Ie, no passes and out for a month on a mob, you just can't chain kill the same mob everytime it spawns and you have to ask other guilds what their plans are if you intend to kill something. I'm saying strictly for adding other guilds to the rotations, it's like the rotations were, but with a catch. Instead of saying "I want to try xx mob!" and having to wait a month, you can try it the next time it spawns (not including NToV) if none of the guilds on it's "rotation" are already killing it. Hence the use of the word priority. If all the major guilds are interested in killing Yelinak, for example, you'd park a mule or something to let you know when Yelinak is up. If it's high enough on my priority list, I'm going to try to know it's up as it spawns. Then I'm going to move my ass over to kill it. If I don't do either, then it's not high enough priority for me to care if a guild that isn't on the rotation wants to give it a go. If you kill the mob, then you are now added to the informal rotation where other guilds will respect you trying to kill a mob for however long you want. The thing is, raid time will be a factor, so that guilds that are learning a mob have to sacrifice time with other things to learn it. The price you pay (such as guilds taking multiple passes on the old igb to do NToV) is relative to your abilty to make stuff work faster and smoother and learn quicker. If you are learning Yelinak, you won't have time to go whack Dozekar if he spawns, so that means you'd lose out on a potential spawn for learning, just as the larger guilds lose out on potential spawns by not keeping up with it. Essentially, I'm saying that guilds with the skills and desire to kill a mob get a fair shot at it, and don't have to wait a month to get that shot if the other guilds on that rotation don't have the desire to jump on that mob as it spawns. here, I'll toss out an example really fast so you can see what I mean.

The "big 4" as you call em basically pick what mobs on their respective rotations (or none at all.. whatever they wanna do) and work it out with each other so they don't collide midflight on a patchday. That means 4 spawns at one time (at max) of all the newly spawned mobs are reserved by the guilds on those rotations. That means EVERY other spawn on the rotations mostly frequented by those 4 guilds that is up is free game till one of the big guilds frees themselves from one of their spawns (kills it or leaves it.. either way, they are now free to do any other already unoccupied mob on their rotation list) and wants to kill another mob they are sorta rotated for. If a guild that isn't on that rotation is on that mob, they get to finish their shot. Such as, if they are prepping, buffing, pulling to it, whatever, they get a full engage. one time. Then they leave for that day. They are not added that day to the list unless they kill it after el uberguild01 fails. The only thing that is exempt is NToV from this rule. I think some sorta preliminary requirements should be on NToV. Like being able to kill Sontalak, Klandicar, Dain, Statue and Zland before you can jump in and try to kill stuff. I'm not talking about bullying at all, but with our other option being "FFA" I'd rather have stuff that's gonna pass be passed as quickly as possible, not letting Bakers of Tunare have all day with Sontalak when any 9 other guilds could have killed him in an hour. If they don't have the power to kill it they shouldn't be on the rotation, that's what I think anyway. They can try it all they want if it's up and nobody is trying to kill it, but they don't get a full day without interruption for it. The only rotation that would be adhered to as a strict timelimit would be NToV.

Make sense? ><

[Thanatoz]

no it doesnt make sense.

ntov does not have the toughest mobs in the game by all means. most thats shit is gimpy. Its not like every dragon in nwing is a yelinak. Ntov just has massive loot.

and im not going to kill yelinak or dain just to prove i can handle ntov. i dont want to kill yelinak or dain.

You want to limit ntov to 1 day then do it..ill glady go kill shit one day at atime until we can clear it in one day. but dont try being judge of what my guild can and cant do. the IGB was working fine...maybe some tuning here and there but lets not rewrite the wheel. just make sensible stepping stones if thats what you want.

[Rezz]

Hah, the idea of putting sorta gateway mobs on NToV is old hat, I was just bringing it up so that it would fit into my whole shlamele. Essentially, there are a few dragons in there that make basically everything else besides Tunare and AoW in the land of SoL look like cake mobs. And I don't believe Yelinak is harder than a lot of mobs in there, he's not, he's just a different kind of fight. So as to not reveal strats, lets just say that 2 dragons in specific (not vyemm) seem to be the hardest normally killable mobs I've ever fought in EQ, and there's not much I haven't killed. Tunare, AoW, Tmax and Doze. I'd throw 4th warder in there but.. yeah.. And the only reason we haven't rocked Tormax is because as a giant aligned guild, it wasn't feasible to farm armor for people and kill the leader of the country at the same time. Same with Doze. Anyway, I digress. Vindication basically refuses to adhere to a strict guideline of rotations, and believes that NToV should be one day. Without giving up every facet of the IGB, the proposal thing I wrote above was kind of a mix between FFA and a fully set in stone rotation guildeline. What would some of the smaller steps you mentioned relate to?

[Thanatoz]

i really dont see why vind wanted this forum...they have yet to post. everything is moot if all parties arent involved.

[Baramos1]

Rezz -

I appreciate your wanting to return to things familiar. I think your proposal is the wrong way to do it. More "exclusive" rotations is not the answer. As for my "flames" they are indicative of the attitude I have toward the guild(s) in question, and I make no apologies for them.

Thanatoz, I believe your posts are right on the money.

Per Roh, ML is done with this discussion.

FFA, Vind?

Ok.

Bara

[Grazel_VE]

The only way a guild can get added to the semi-rotation of a mob is by it not being engaged in a timely fashion by any guild that is on the semi-rotation.

Now THAT is a load of horsepuckey.

Be the first to kill a mob and you own it forever? Screw that.

[Grazel_VE]

Ciner requested access to the IGB again to discuss some issues from last night... however, I felt that it was best to make something separate for now while things are figured out in that other forum still.

Ciner is a bald-faced liar.

First he accuses VE of training them, which I know is a lie because I was with the guy they accused.

Then they trained that wyvern around, which I personally witnessed. Then the wyvern got parked in the HoT entrance shortly after VE went in.

[Lylala]

I want to start by saying that I dont think I have any enemies on this server, nor do I plan to start making any. Somewhere someone mentioned CN having had issues with L'Malla and thinking Dl'goth is evil incarnate -- well, that was CN. I never thought that myself when we were still CN, and I dont now either. That was Kuru's deal...not mine. Point being, I do my best to get along with people and be fair.

First a question: Do any of you guys remember what it was like being a small, not very powerful guild ... trying your best to get bigger, stronger? Trying to learn new mobs and become more powerful? Just because some guilds got uber powerful faster than others, does that give them the right to try and squish the rest of us simply because it took us longer to get to that point? Or in NI's case, we were THERE...and Kuru went nutty and tore the guild apart. Yeah, sorry, but we got a bit slowed down during that. We had to start over from scratch...and I for one think NI has done a great job in the last 3 months recovering from the disaster that was Kuru. I realize this probably doesnt really concern any of you...I just want to explain where I'm coming from.

A lot of you had all the time in the world to keep trying certain mobs until you figured out how to kill them. I dont get mad easily, but give me a break! If one of the 'BIG FOUR' isnt on a mob, my guild can feel free to go there and try it, but if we buff up once, and one of the "BIG FOUR" shows up during our buffing (adding to lag/LD issues to boot)...we pull, but fail...we can't try again because OMG it's one of the "BIG FOUR" guilds...if they are ready to kill this mob now, we have to rez our ppl and leave.
And what if 3 or 4 of the 'smaller' guilds all want to try the same mob that the "BIG FOUR" are currently ignoring? Oh what a mell of a hess that will be.

This all just makes me sad more than anything else. Pretty much everyone on the server, at one time or another, has called Vindication/Seekers snobs because of their "we're better than you, we deserve certain special treatment yada blah blah"....well it's starting to look like each guild starts thinking that way once they get to the "BIG TWO" or "BIG THREE" or however many we get up to. My attitude will always be: everyone else pays their money each month just like I do. NI may not be able to kill certain mobs yet...but we're damn sure getting there. But without a fair chance at practice, we may not get to go all the way...and that seems to be just what the "BIG FOUR" wants...cause after all that means more phat lewts for the rest of you.

I really do prefer the old rotation system. Maybe with some changes to make some things more fair for the guilds who have proven they can kill whatever every time, first try. But not so as to punish us smaller guilds to the point that we never get a fair shot.

Just wanted to say my peace is all, as I know that my guild really wont be given much say in the final outcome, rather we'll just have to go along with what the rest of you decide. Dont underestimate us though in the grand scheme of things...we arent exactly a teeny tiny guild anymore, and we get stronger every day.

:D

[Dlgoth Riknueth]

Somewhere someone mentioned CN having had issues with L'Malla and thinking Dlgoth is evil incarnate -- well, that was CN. I never thought that myself when we were still CN, and I dont now either. That was Kuru's deal...not mine. Point being, I do my best to get along with people and be fair.



Basically what I said was just that, though I'm sure there are still a FEW in NI that have carried that feeling over. Just my few on it, nothing more. Never said you or anyone specific, or NI as a whole.




Or in NI's case, we were THERE...and Kuru went nutty and tore the guild apart.


No offense Ly, but CN wasn't as big as Kuru tried to make ya'll out to be. NI is > CN ever was IMO.

[Lylala]

LOL let me put it another way....CN was getting more to 'mid size' then small...He took a very long leave of absence with no warning or communication...during that time, we killed Klandicar for the first time (version 1.0 that is)...which for us was a big deal at the time. Then he came back out of nowhere, tried to start running things his way again, realized we werent gonna put up with his crap anymore, so he wreaked havoc like a true pro, then disbanded the guild. Anyway, sorry for rambling on about that...it's a subject I have trouble stopping once I start it :( And I didnt mean to seem accusatory or anything with what I said about anyone thinkin' yer evil...just wanted to state my feelings on the matter.

I agree, we are way stronger now...maybe not up to "BIG FOUR" standards yet, but if given a fair chance, we could be easily. I would rather see the whole server go FFA than see guilds like ours be stuck with the crumbs and sloppy seconds of the 'ELITE' guilds. We've worked too hard to get where we are to suddenly get halted by someone elses whims.

[Grazel_VE]

Originally posted by Thanatoz
i really dont see why vind wanted this forum...they have yet to post. everything is moot if all parties arent involved.

Vindi's been pretty clear they have nothing to discuss with anyone.

I don't agree there's nothing to discuss. I just think we should do it in a forum that Vindi has no access to.

[Baramos1]

Ok, then, let's start talking on the regular board again.

Bara

[Ciner]

Can we ban Grazel from this forum, this moron dosn't even kill SoL ubers and yet flames on and on here. Personally I think Blambil or one of the other VE can represent this forum better for the guild.

Reguarding last Ntov, we had no intention of going to Ntov, Doz and Lend were our plan. While I do like Rezz's proposal, I just dont think with the current state of things it will fly well.

I say if ML wants to do all the Ntov's we should let them, they do have more members to equip anyways, and pleanty of other spawns for us to kill.

[Xorshaik_VE]

Look..

This forum just got started. So far we have 8 posts and 73 responses which have been read collectively 764 times. Some folks would pose the question: what's the point.

So this board is for resolving disputes? Where is the resolution? I may be new here, but I've got to imagine there is an opportunity to do more than just respond to accusations with "LIES" and "STFU".

Just using an example, but:

Statements made to date:

Grazel stated a fact, he saw a member of Vindi running through the 4-way with an NToV mob on him.

Ciner stated in response that this member did not train.

-----------------------------------------------------

So is Ciner's proposed resolution to 1) deny the incident and 2) propose that the person voicing the concern be removed from being able to voice concerns?

If that is how this board is to operate, what's the point? Why not just involve GM's in disputes since this is pretty much non-resolution.

Along those lines, we also have some nToV swapping allegations involving ML… Whatever.

We could try to get to the bottom of who is responsible.. I don't know if that would really accomplish anything though. I think this kind of thing could happen unintentionally, I would hope that nobody here would do this intentionally, and even if that were the case, I doubt you'd hear anyone admit to it because it would surely be a just basis for everyone else bringing down the wrath of God on that person and their guild.

Would anyone care to offer a SOLUTION?

How hard would that be to do? Just tell make a useful, informative post on what to do if your guild pops in on ToV only to find there is a mob at the zone-in that's KoS to all, and which CoV mobs will assist in a nasty way….

I'll tell you the answer: not hard at all, right? All you have to do is use someone with DA (preferably someone with a good connection, who is bound at the zone in so they can quickly have their corpse summoned back, and who isn't going to mind losing about 4% of the blue bubble they're going to lose by dying and being rezzed). This person will zone in and train the mob as far as they can towards NtoV.. They probably won't have any trouble at least making the zone-in safe… Repeat until the mob is positioned as desired (back in NtoV).

Of course I play a monk, so what do I know about DA… My understanding is if you cast it then zone you still have it… I guess it could be a little more difficult if that's not the case, but isn't that something more helpful to discuss than who can bite who and calling such-and-so a liar?