Huzzah!

[Eomer]

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/americas/09/04/canada.pot/index.html

Discuss!

[Rezz]

Amsterdam will not be pleased *cracks knuckles*

I still don't see why it's illegal in the first place, Cheech and Chong are like american idols. Even the british guy can't knock em.

On a slightly more serious note, hope this passes, would do a lot for the legalization process here in America. Oddly enough, I have never toked a fattie bowl once in my life, but it's ridiculous that I can get plastered every night and do more damage to myself through drinking than I would do through smoking twice as much pot. Freakah!

[Eomer]

I think the number one question you have to ask when talking about the whole weed issue is: why is tobacco and alcohol legal, and marijuana not.

If anyone can actually win that argument, fine, never legalize it. Problem is, I don't think it is a winnable argument that the first two are better than the third. So simple common sense dictates that either you legalize all three, or make them ALL illegal.

This is one of my big hobby horses, because I think the prohibition of marijuana is one of the most illogical and stupid things prevalent in our societies. And also cause I enjoy it myself, from time to time.

And I can guarantee that I have commited WAY more stupid/potentially dangerous acts while drunk than while stoned, as I am sure has anyone else that do or has done both.

It's just so amusing the number of myths out there, and how the people against legalization trot them out every GD time. I remember about 3 years back my mom gave me a book entitled "DRUGS (it was like 2 inch lettering) What your Kids Should Know!" It was so chock full of absolute garbage that it was laughable. Every now and then it would italicize or bold a certain passage or sentence that was of particular importance, and those were just outrageous

The bottom line is, the more you smoke pot, the lazier you get

People who continue to smoke marijuana become, essentially, dumber and dumber as time passes

You can become addicted to pot, the very first time you smoke it

[Vinilaa]

It's good for the environment too!

Hemp is a key crop in helping to remedy some of the problems that continue to damage our planet.

Hemp is the world's primary biomass producer, growing ten tons/acre in approximately 4 months. It can produce 4 times the amount of paper/acre than 20-year-old trees can, and will grow in various climatic zones. Hemp can also be used to produce charcoal, gas or methanol oil -- among many other things.

By using hemp pulp for the production of paper, we could curtail deforestation and produce stronger, more environmentally sound paper products for less than 1/2 the price of wood pulp paper. The process only uses 14-25% as much sulphur-based acids as used in paper produced from wood pulp. The problem of dioxin (a by-product of chlorine that has been shown to cause breast-cancer) contamination of our rivers and lakes could be reversed since chlorine bleach is not used to bleach hemp pulp.

I could go on but you get the idea. The greatest barrier to hemp production has been the ban on commercial cultivation. However, Canada relaxed their farming restrictions about a decade ago. Maybe we'll do the same in the states. ;)

The Marijuana Tax Act of 1936 should be repealed imo.

[Tilea]

Drinking will always be more fun than smoking pot

[Rezz]

That is so completely true Tilea. I don't think it's even possible to play chicken in go-carts while high with any real sense of danger present. But while drunk, the oppurtunities are nearly endless. However, I suppose this means I really can't make fun of canadians anymore. Go Canucks =\

[Maegwin]

The very fact that you talk about legalizing marijuana because smoking or drinking is legal, is a rationalization. The fact is, all 3 can addict you, all three can ruin your life, and all 3 can ruin the lives of others around you.

If you ask me, they should all be illegal.

The Hemp paper thing sounds decent tho, I'd like to save some trees.

[Abyori]

Have to remeber that marijuana has been known to push some people on to more addictive and dangerous drugs, like heroin and such.

Not that I don't agree with you guys on alot of points, I just think thats the main point separating pot from smoking and drinking. ^ ^

[Vinilaa]

Originally posted by Abyori
Have to remeber that marijuana has been known to push some people on to more addictive and dangerous drugs, like heroin and such.

Actually that premise has been proven to be false. In fact, when pot was criminalized in 1936 more people turned to other illegal substances like heroin. The same can be said for the prohibition of alcohol and is, in fact, one of the reasons alcohol was again legalized.

Personally, I'd like to see more money put into drug treatment and rehabilitation rather than see people who smoke pot treated like criminals. I'm in favor of decriminalization.

Yes, addiction is a terrible problem but drug addiction in itself should not be a criminal issue. Putting someone in jail doesn't solve their problem with addiction. And the fact is why should someone who smokes pot go to jail while someone who drinks vodka or smokes tobacco doesn't? Why does the state see fit to regulate some addictive substances and not others?

[Strahd]

Bah... tobacco... weed... alcohol... Hell they ALL haven't got SHIT on EQ... Look at how ridiculously addicted we all are/have been/will be/were addicted to EQ. This is more of a jest, but is slightly true... Its too easy to worry about addiction, you can become addicted to anything, some actually have a physical dependance factor, while others are merely mental. As far as I know, weed is not biologically addicting, but more mental based. Alcohol and Tobacco on the other hand can form true physical addictions.
Illegality breeds a lot of the reason for wanting to smoke weed in the first place. Its a cool thing to do and you get joy out of it. I can remember in highschool, smoking weed with people because they were and doing it because that was what they did for fun. I never really enjoyed smoking that much or drinking for that matter, unless girls were involded, then I loved it. Point being, it wasn't the alcohol or weed I wanted, it was to be around the girls. Anyway... I think it should be legalized, I think we'd see a drop off in use of Marijuana, whats fun about getting a drug over the counter? Aren't pill abuse issues the big thing anymore anyway? Kids popping rittalin or what not? I don't know anymore, I'm 22 and I'm old now, but I know that I hardly drink and never smoke anymore. Lifting and swimming are more enjoyable to me, hell more relaxing too.
In closing, I think it should be legalized, dumb fucks will get addicted regardless, its all about self moderation. But hey, I say we have enough people in this world, lets thin the herd.

[Elidroth]

The simple answer to all of the questions is money.

The tobacco and alcohol industries are so entrenched in the US economy that it is not financially practical for them to be made illegal. We have in our country's history a PRIME example of what happens when you criminalize a given product. The price goes up, organized crime gets involved in sale/production, and violent crime surrounding the product goes way up. Hello prohibition. It's funny that after all these years we still haven't learned our lessons about this..

The tobacco industry also has a captive audience. Why should they want competition or change?

But taking away the purely monetary concerns.. If you converted the entire tobacco industry over to hemp/marijuana, the impact on the environment would be HUGE. Tobacco so badly depletes the soil it grows in that if you don't rotate crops every single year, the soil gets burned out and NOTHING will grow there. Hemp on the other hand is VERY gentle on the soil, grows anywhere, can be easily mulched over to restock the soil, and so on and so on..

Add to this the calming effects of pot on the human psyche.. I've never seen anyone get into a fight when high. You're just too relaxed.. Alcohol isn't called Liquid Courage for nothing.

Personally.. I'd legalize it.. tax it.. put it under the same rules and regulations as any other mind altering substance.

[Tilea]

Why illegalize drinking just because it has the potential to ruin my life, Maegwin? I have a drivers license, I could get into an accident and completely end my life. or someone elses... but you can't just make driving a car illegal either.

The laws in place to force people to drink/smoke responsibly just need to be made more stiff. You can't go taking fun away from people.

[BurnemWizfyre]

Why Alcohol isnt going to ever be illegal.

Think really hard about this if youre a parent, or ask youre parents...90% of us were conceived while our parents were
drunk/had been drinking. You could make a argument that alcohol plays a determing factor in as many new lifes being created as it does in ending life.

[Eomer]

Okay, sweet, some discussion! I love arguing! First I will clarify, when I state “we” or “our country”, or basically don’t explicitly state what location I am talking about, I just mean North America in general. Both countries right now have very similar demographics, laws, and ideas pertaining to drugs in general, weed in specific.

This is going to be extremely long (I just finished writing and am adding this to warn you), so most people prolly won’t even read it. Oh well I guess J. However, I welcome people to question my beliefs or what I have said, I think it’s entertaining to debate stuff like this.

Also, forgive me if I ramble, it's been years since I wrote a real essay, none of this is proof read, nor was there any real structure to it.

First of all, most of people's common beliefs on marijuana are completely false, in most respects. They are supported as fact however, by opponents of decriminalization, and ESPECIALLY police associations. Police associations are the absolute worst culprits of them all, they have been feeding us propaganda on weed since they originally outlawed it in the early part of the 1930’s. In Canada for example, 43% of all drug related offences are pot. Make it legal, there goes a whole shit load of cops jobs, more than likely. Of course they don’t want that to happen. Canadian police organizations last year spent roughly 500 million dollars on enforcement of drug laws in relation to marijuana, and I imagine the court costs are in the tens of millions. Couldn’t that money be better spent on treating people with real addictions?

And yes Maegwin, it IS a rationalization. I don’t see a problem with that, why should a law be irrational?

As far as addiction goes, you have obviously never smoked pot, or at the most have done it a handful of times. Pot is NOT addictive in a chemical sense. That is a scientific fallacy. There are NO discernable withdrawal effects of someone who smokes pot on a daily basis for even years, and is then forced to quit cold turkey. At the very most they may have trouble with their sleep cycle, because they have probably been using to regulate themselves in that respect. Christ, sounds an awful lot like caffeine, doesn’t it? Anyone calling for that one to be made illegal?

Yes, people can become addicted to pot, but not chemically. ANYTHING can be addictive to the right personality. I mean fuck, this is an EQ message board here, 95% of you have probably shown symptoms of withdrawal/addiction in relation to EQ. People can be addicted to chocolate, gambling, porn (LLCoolJ was!), sex, reading message boards (that’s me), whatever, it can be addictive. Is it up to the government and police organizations to determine what is a good addiction and what is a bad one? How and why would they do that? We don’t live in a police state do we?

In terms of ruining lives, marijuana is so far down the list of things that can do that, it’s actually a comical argument to even make. Look how many people are killed in alcohol related incidents, whether it be driving, doing some stupid stunt (some asshole just drowned last night driving his snowmobile across a fucking lake, yay him), or just getting into a fight and causing property or personal damage. Smoking kills thousands of people daily. Gambling completely fucks lives up (dunno if anyone else has heard of VLT’s, Video Lottery Terminals, but the things are essentially crack cocaine that you pay for one loonie at a time) beyond all recognition on a daily basis. Christ, big fans of pro sports neglect their families on a daily basis. People whip around in sports cars and rap themselves around telephone poles. The list goes on and on, and every last thing I mentioned above I can guarantee has a higher social impact than someone who smokes weed.

How can it ruin your life? I cannot think of a single person that has “ruined” their life because of weed. I have seen a lot of people do it with weed, but if it wasn’t gonna be weed, it was going to be another thing just as bad, if not worse. I smoke it on a pretty regular basis. I will go three months smoking it once a day before I go to sleep, then go a few months without it because I start to develop a resistance to it. I hardly consider my life ruined, and I hardly think I am seriously addicted to it. I am not stupid. A lot of the smartest people I knew back in engineering enjoyed it on a regular basis, it sure doesn’t seem to be damning them to a life of stupidity, mediocrity, or laziness.

Explain to me why tobacco, alcohol, weed, or any other thing that is “harmful” to you should be made illegal? Is it the government’s job to protect normal sane people from themselves? I thought we only did that for crazy people. There are TONS of things that are harmful to us that the government doesn’t regulate, and shouldn’t. If it harms other people, then hey, fine, maybe they should step in. The current status of pot and other soft drugs as illegal is the only thing that causes others to be harmed by it. I will explain why later (this is long, I know, bear with me!).

Abyori, the assertion that pot is a “gateway drug” is one of the favorite things pulled out of a policeman’s hat every time he has to talk about why pot is bad. And guess what, it is absolute horseshit. You know how they determined that? They went into a jail, took a survey, and discovered that a lot of people with heroin, cocaine, or speed problems just happened to also have done pot! Why, way to fucking go, you guys just found the problem! They also all breathe oxygen, walk upright, and have hair. Quickly, pull everyone’s lungs out, chop their legs off and shave them bald as a baby, because that shit is making everyone into drugged out zombies. You can’t just make such a huge leap of faith like that.

Maybe they should consider the fact that the type of person willing to try weed is simply more likely to dabble in things that aren’t exactly great for them. Me personally? First drug I ever did was acid when I was 13. So I guess acid is actually the real gateway drug right? In truth I was just willing to try whatever seemed like fun, regardless of harm to myself (as long as it wasn’t very addictive, to this day I haven’t and won’t touch cocaine, and could never stick a needle in myself). That’s why people think pot is a gateway drug, just because the people who have done harder drugs have also done pot. It’s a stupid conclusion to make.

And lets pull out alcohol here, the true gateway drug. I can guarantee that 99.99% of the people who have done weed drank first, and were even probably drunk when they first tried weed, at a party or something. I guess that means alcohol is evil too, then. It is also a gateway to an infinite amount of stupidity, death, and sadness. It is the cause and solution to all the world’s problems (thanks Homer, a true piece of wisdom from the Simpsons). Hell, junior high was my real “gateway” into all the stupid shit I have done over the years, they should make that shit illegal too.
To this day, if you ask basically anyone who has actually studied pot scientifically, they will tell you without any question that pot is indeed not a gateway drug.

In terms of health issues related to pot, it is again nowhere near as harmful as either alcohol or tobacco. If you were to smoke a joint the same size as a cigarette, all by yourself, then yes, that particular instance of smoking weed would be worse for you. But even the most hardcore or pot smokers, maybe 1% of them, would smoke maybe 3-6 of those joints a day. It’s rare to find a smoker who smokes much less than 20 cigarettes a day, if not way the hell more. So that basically negates any serious pulmonary damage done by weed. It doesn’t have nearly as many carcinogens as tobacco does, it’s mainly tar, which is also made worse because there is no filtering generally (unless you are a really ambitious weed smoker!).

And again compared to alcohol, the long term effects of weed are totally benign. Look at all the horrific things that happen with long term alcoholism. None of them happen with weed essentially, none.

And one of the favorite arguments against weed is that it makes you dumber over time, the longer you smoke it. Problem is, again they used shitty methods to determine this. They took people who had been smoking weed consistently (and by that, I mean their consumption was measured in eighth’s a day, that’s 30-50 bucks a day of weed), gave them two days to sober up, and then had them take tests and compared the results to people who never smoke weed. Well yea, I am sure that if they have been smoking that much for that long, they are gonna need more than a few days to sober up.

Read this link for a halfway decent test of pot’s effect on people’s cognitive ability: http://www.newscientist.com/hottopics/marijuana/memory.jsp

And now the last item I want to get into regarding the prohibition of weed: how making it illegal is actually causing more damage than would be caused if it were legal and controlled, much like alcohol or tobacco.

Fact number one: it is extremely easy for any teenager in school to get weed, as well as numerous other drugs. In fact, it was actually way easier in junior high for me and my friends to get our hands on weed than either alcohol or tobacco. That right there should be a big fat ringing alarm bell that maybe there is something wrong with our current system.

Also, to get back to what I said earlier about how the only reason pot hurts people other than the users themselves (and only hurts the users marginally), is because it’s illegal. You know those commercials that were on in the states (I only ever saw one) that said how if you do/buy drugs, you are funding terrorists? That’s partially true I guess, although not really in relation to weed. Most money Americans spend on weed end up in BC or Alberta :D. BC grows something like 800 tonnes of weed a year, 70% of which ends up in the US eventually. Alberta isn’t too far behind either. So the money isn’t going to terrorists really. It actually goes to a lot of regular average people with grow ops in their basements (there was one estimate that one in four homes in the suburbs of Vancouver like Burnaby etc has a grow op in the basement, although that seems way too incredibly high). But of course, there are the middle men, and the drug dealers themselves.

It’s actually quite surprising the Hells Angels haven’t smartened the fuck up and started to lobby our governments to ensure that weed stays illegal, as it is probably their number one source of income above anything else (I could be wrong). The second weed becomes a legal controlled substance, the Hells Angels instantly lose probably tens to hundreds of millions of dollars. In effect, we are actually funding various gangs by keeping it illegal. How the hell does that make sense?

It is almost sheer profit for them, the actual costs of growing weed are so tiny it’s ridiculous. Hell, it’s a fucking weed! Instead of those massive profits going to some Vietnamese guy that just stabbed his cousin to death (Edmonton has a pretty large gang problem, there are drive by’s and fire bombings relatively often, some jackass with an assault rifle was shot dead by some other jackass with a handgun a month or two ago) to buy himself a bigger turbo charger on his Civic, why not tax the shit out of it when it’s legal? All those untold billions of dollars can happily be funneled into federal programs, whether it just go into their standard coffers, or set aside to fund actual real useful meaningful programs to get people help, whether they are woefully addicted to weed, alcohol, or harder drugs.

Another myth is that if it’s legalized, it will suddenly cause everyone to start smoking it, and use will sky rocket. The other side of the coin is that by making it illegal, we are somehow reducing its use and prevalence in society. Facts topple both of those arguments.

Use went down in Holland when they decriminalized it. They did studies and were shocked to discover that. They still have found no real explanation, although the anti-drug crusaders claim that the reason went down is because everyone just moved on to harder and more potent drugs. They haven’t been able to prove that, and I have my doubts that it has even a shred of truth. Personally I think it’s bizarre that use went down as well, and I have no real explanation of why. However I am not surprised that use didn’t actually go up.

And it’s funny that, even though pot has been illegal for over 70 years in North America, it’s use continues to climb higher and higher, although after the 70’s it did take a brief hit in popularity as everyone started to snort nose candy. But over the past 15-20 years its use has again been rising, especially in teenagers. Nothing anyone has ever done has actually lessened its use, nothing. It’s pointless to continue trying, people are going to keep doing it no matter what. If you can’t stop the demand for it, there will always be someone ready to supply it, so again it’s pointless to even bust people who traffic in it.

Taken the above, why in god’s name do we still make it illegal? It hurts society in general to have it illegal. Why should some young person by saddled with a criminal record for potentially the rest of their lives, because they got caught with a few grams by an officer having a bad day. A friend of mine is narrowly escaping being thrown in jail for “possession with intent to traffic” for being caught with about 5 grams (40 bucks CDN roughly) of weed in his back pocket at a music festival, of all places. They are dropping the charges to simply possession, so he will just have to donate money and do volunteer work and they will do whatever it’s called where you don’t end up with a record (I am a lawyer, you can tell yes?).

Our current laws are stupid and pointless, and serve no benefit to anyone other than Police worried about their jobs, and the people who profit in trafficking it. It’s time they were changed.

[Eomer]

LOL, final count, just under 2600 words.

BTW, I like Burnem's rationalization of why alcohol will never be illegal: because people fuck drunk. Nice :D

[zagzal]

It's good for the environment too!

That sounds like a line that should be in the movie Half baked lol

But I think hte biggest thnig is that Gov'mt could not make any money of it. Money is the key. Any one can grow their own plant at the house. Other people can mass produce itt and sell it on the streets versus "comercializing it.

Just think if Joe and his family grew a few acers of hydro. An ounce of Hydro cost about $200 (or more)They would make so much money its sad. While the Gov'mt would make $0

lol it all comes down to the money lol

[Eomer]

I think that's partially a myth... making beer or wine in your basement isn't particularily difficult either (although I admit that it isn't as easy), yet boot legging isn't really all that big of a problem.

And at least if some mom and pop operation is doing it, the money isn't being siphoned off by a gang or what have you.

And mark my words, decriminalization isn't very far off in Canada. We have a Prime Minister on his way out within the next 18 months, who is very conscious of the "Legacy" he would leave behind. Every decision he makes over the next year and a half is consciously made to better his position in the history books, and I personally think that this is one issue he and his advisors will view as a positive decision to make.

[Rezz]

Hah, I read the entire thing Homer, I am addicted to message boards as well =\

That test where you mentioned the guy who smoked an 8th a day for years being given a couple days to sober up and then take a test, repeat that with the guy who had been having that same 40-50 spent in alcohol per day. But you probably couldn't use years for that, because his liver would have to be replaced after drinking that much alcohol. So, it could technically be argued that alcohol is far more dangerous and damaging to the body (like.. shitloads more. A single person consuming that much alcohol in one day would get alcohol poisoning, easy) but also cheaper. This would explain why the usage decreased in Holland after it was legalized, it was no longer "breakin the law!" as it were, so the cool factor of tokin a bowl during your lunch break at school would be negated and replaced with a much cheaper addiction. Nothing would change, alcoholism wouldn't be on the rise, yet consumption of marijauna would decrease.

It's honestly a pretty simple equation. Stuff that is illegal and gets you some form of altered mental state will have high consumption regardless of price, especially if it is addictive. Legal substances that give you some form of altered mental state and are priced relatively high will not be purchased as readily as the cheaper fix. It's simply not quite as rebellious in most cases if it's legal, especially if it's expensive. You don't see kids sippin Crystal (I don't know how it's spelled, the expensive champagne shit) on their lunch breaks do ya? They sneak in the cheap ass vodka and a sixpack of Bud.

Damn, legal at 16 too, that makes it even less attractive to your average youth. It would probably get pushed to 18 or so here in the states, because we are kinda backwards =/

[Maegwin]

I like to debate as well, but can't write a very long one right now....so I'll just say this:


Maybe they should consider the fact that the type of person willing to try weed is simply more likely to dabble in things that aren’t exactly great for them.

"Things that aren't exactly great for them" ?

Give me one BENEFIT to yourself, physically, of smoking marijauna? And no, I won't accept "It makes me feel good", because thats just a temporary feeling, something that as you said yourself, you become tolerant too. I'm talking about cold, hard, benefit...something like "It has increased my ability to retain what I read by 20%"...thats just an example.

And if something isn't beneficial to you, it stands to reason that it is BAD for you. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow...but in the long run you will be worse off.

Oh yeah, I work for a software company that does lots of government contracting. We're basically required to have security clearances, which can be damn near impossible to get if you chronically smoke/drink or what have you. Unless you lie on your application which will cause you to get denied for you application anyways, so kinda defeats the purpose.

Some other thoughts...

I find that the argument that drinking is a GOOD thing because it has been helping people have sex is LUDICROUS. While you may have been joking, I don't think it's a laughing matter... Drinking is probably the leading cause of rape, sexual assault, spousal abuse and more. Those aren't things to laugh about.

And if drinking is legal, and it has an age limit, but yet kids still go around doing it Illegaly because they are too young, an they go around getting themselves killed because of drunk driving, stupid dares or whatever....you could argue that kids will still abuse marijuana before they are of age.

And like, not to be sterotypical or anything but....anyone I've ever met that smokes pot on a regular basis has been a total loser, burn out, basket case, lazy sob...not generally good values that companies look for in the work place.

People need to grow up and start taking responsibility for their actions, hding behind rationalizations about why marijuana is good for you will only do you more damage than it will good to your life, career, or family.

[Vinilaa]

Originally posted by Eomer
We don’t live in a police state do we

This is the only thing you've said that I might argue with, Eomer :p

Also a couple of points on things that are "bad" for us that the gov. doesn't deem worthy of regulation, while illegal drugs need to be regulated in order to "protect us." hmmm well how about our crappy food regulation? If you knew how lax those laws are and how much disgusting crap can "legally" be in your food you would probably be sick.

The lack of environmental protection and the fact that a playground for children can be built on top of a paved over toxic site should also make you reconsider that "the government protects us by regulating substances that harm us argument."

And as to the "you are funding terrorism by buying drugs argument" um and gasoline (which is THE biggest reason for our wars in the middle east) doesn't? Yeah right... Terrorists don't care about those oil fields. :rolleyes:

:D

V-

[Khael]

The very fact that you talk about legalizing marijuana because smoking or drinking is legal, is a rationalization. The fact is, all 3 can addict you, all three can ruin your life, and all 3 can ruin the lives of others around you. Sounds like EQ to me :D

Although I confess that I am of the same standpoint :p

[Vinilaa]

Originally posted by Maegwin
People need to grow up and start taking responsibility for their actions, hding behind rationalizations about why marijuana is good for you will only do you more damage than it will good to your life, career, or family.

I agree. People need to personally take responsibilty, they don't need their government to act like a parent and make these kind of decisions for them. IMHO :p

I know several very successful Doctors, Lawyers, Professors and Artists/Writers/Musicians who smoke pot on a regular basis... In fact some of the smartest people I know (I'm talking IQs of 145+ here) smoke pot.

Marijuana has serveral beneficial aspects:

It is relaxing. It actually helps some people I know think more carefully. It can make you more introspective and more creative. It helps people sleep without the negative side effects of other sleeping aids. It helps people with AIDS, Cancer and Glaucoma... In fact, it has MANY medical benefits. You can also eat it. In fact people have survived famines by eating hemp seeds... ;)

[Phaera]

*takes all Vini's papers and runs off* :p

[Eomer]

Yea Vin, but you are one of those pinko left wing commies that think everything the government does is to undermine your personal liberty! I am totally kidding! But seriously, our two governments are more or less unmatched in personal freedoms on this planet, along with a number of European countries, and Australia too I guess! I just meant it could be a lot fucking worse anyway :).


Give me one BENEFIT to yourself, physically, of smoking marijauna? And no, I won't accept "It makes me feel good", because thats just a temporary feeling, something that as you said yourself, you become tolerant too. I'm talking about cold, hard, benefit...something like "It has increased my ability to retain what I read by 20%"...thats just an example.

Uhm, I actually AGREE with you. In terms of recreational use of marijuana, no, there are virtually no benefits to it. It does help some people with creativity, and maybe makes some people less introverted. I consider the feeling I get from it to be a benefit, in the same way a good meal is well, good, or the same way I enjoy a good CD/book/movie/whatever. You say that doesn't count, that's fine then. There isn't very many (non-medicinal) benefits to pot, but that applies to virtually everything most people do for pleasure. The whole point is you like it, it feels good.

You go to movies? What benefit does a standard run of the mill Hollywood movie give you? Probably nothing. Some of the better ones may enlighten you, get you to think about something you never thought of, or in a different light, or make you eager to take up some good just cause. But most of the time it's mindless entertainment. Should movies be illegal just because they don't offer much tangible good? I would think not. Same thing applies to soft drinks (I would use alcohol, but you don't like it either, it seems :D). Most are actually quite unhealthy, especially diet ones (or so I have heard, aspartame is apparently the devil incarnate). The only benefit to them is that they taste good, and might give you a caffeine buzz. Uhoh, sounds like a drug to me! Again, no one in their right mind would argue they should be made illegal.


And if something isn't beneficial to you, it stands to reason that it is BAD for you. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow...but in the long run you will be worse off.

I don't think you can reason that if something isn't good for you, that it must be bad for you. Case in point: I recently read some study that apparently stretching before exercising actually seems to do virtually nothing to prevent muscle stiffness, or injury. But they said it isn't bad either. It's a saw off.

However, in regards to pot, yes I do agree with you that it is probably bad for your health. Your are inhaling smoke into your lungs, and putting your mind in a slightly (or very) altered state. Yea, it's probably gonna be bad for you long term, if not short. But again, is this reason enough to make it illegal? In my marathon post, I stated a bunch of things that are legal that are at least as bad for you as pot, if not exponentially worse. And the vast majority of them are legal.

Remember that idiot I mentioned that decided to ride his snowmobile on the lake in the middle of the night and then drowned? They asked the RCMP, and as far as they were concerned, it is a perfectly legal activity (although if it is to be by the book, he has to have a fire extinguisher, oar, life jacket, and whistle like any other water craft, lol). Now, I am not using the argument that because some other really dangerous activity is legal, that pot should be too. What I AM saying however, is that the risks involved with pot are so small, and limited to one's own self, that it hardly justifies the stigma attached to it.


I find that the argument that drinking is a GOOD thing because it has been helping people have sex is LUDICROUS. While you may have been joking, I don't think it's a laughing matter... Drinking is probably the leading cause of rape, sexual assault, spousal abuse and more. Those aren't things to laugh about.

I think everyone involved was kidding there :D. And I agree with you, a lot of terrible things happen because of alcohol. Last year's Canada Day, 4K drunken assholes went on a riot on Whyte Ave here, the main party area in the city. Had they all been sober, there would have been no problems. But again, I hardly think the solution is to limit people's access to it. It is not the government's job to enforce morality on people. Although when people cross the line, there should be significant punishment (a friend of mine has been under house arrest for 12 months because he got stupid that night, and his genius sister had a video camera filming him throwing a garbage can through a window, WTG genius).

Look at what happens in countries where the government does try to instill morality in people. Take fundamentalist Islamic countries. To prevent men of ever being tempted of actually being attracted to a woman, they force women to never really show their face (although some are allowed to, but hair is never to be shown, since we all know how sexy hair is), and often are not allowed to leave their house w/o a male family member. Do you want to live in a society like that? Not for me, thanks.


And if drinking is legal, and it has an age limit, but yet kids still go around doing it Illegaly because they are too young, an they go around getting themselves killed because of drunk driving, stupid dares or whatever....you could argue that kids will still abuse marijuana before they are of age.

Again, I agree with you. But that doesn't refute the point I made earlier: that by making pot illegal, it is actually easier to get than alcohol or tobacco. This may not be the case everywhere, I went to a junior high and high school full of Vietnamese people (sorry to stereotype, but there was a bunch of cousins and brothers that were all around the same age that were all involved in criminal activity, several of them are now in jail for murder etc), but at the very least, pot is no harder to get than booze for the average teenager. Making it illegal does nothing to cut off the supply.


And like, not to be sterotypical or anything but....anyone I've ever met that smokes pot on a regular basis has been a total loser, burn out, basket case, lazy sob...not generally good values that companies look for in the work place.

I strongly disagree with you here. In fact, if you replace "smokes pot on a regular basis" with "black/asian/white people" it becomes a blatantly racist statement, and no one would accept it. I think that the same reaction should apply to that statement. Just because the pot smokers you have met are burn outs, does not mean all are. And how do you know that the hot shot lawyer across the street or the neurosurgeon down the block are not heads when they get home? You would be very suprised.

You can't make a sweeping generalization about a group of people based on your experience with probably under 20 people. Hell, if I were to do the same based on my experiences with English/Black/Native people who have worked for our business in the past 10 years, I would have to say that every last one of them is useless and has no work ethic. But that would be a stupid and close minded thing to do.


People need to grow up and start taking responsibility for their actions, hding behind rationalizations about why marijuana is good for you will only do you more damage than it will good to your life, career, or family.

I totally agree with you in regards to people needing to take responsibility! But where did anyone justify something "because I was stoned"? What do pot smokers need to take responsibility before? Pot smokers, if anything, are LESS likely to commit crimes while high. They are docile and generally friendly, unlike drunks. The only reason that cops can claim that pot smoking increases crime is because THEY MADE IT A CRIME. You would never catch me running across a freeway while baked out of my skull, but I used to do it frequently when sauced up enough. Maybe I just missed your point here, but I really don't see what you were trying to say. Pot doesn't ruin people's lives. The people smoking it do.

It kind of goes back to the whole chicken and egg thing. Was the guy a loser before he started smoking pot (and maybe the loser personality is just predisposed to doing drugs?), or did pot turn him into a loser. I go for the first one, personally. I know way too many people that occasionally toke that are successful or will be successful (hey, I am still young yet!) to think that it drags you down in anyway. Of the ten close friends I had in engineering, probably 5 or 6 of them would say sure if you handed them a J on a friday night house party. These are people who are very smart, and very hard working, otherwise they wouldn't be where they are.

And also, if you want people to take responsibility for their actions, how then does taking the decision away from them make them more responsible? That logic doesn't make much sense to me. If you want parents to be responsible for their kids, is your first reaction to make every violent computer game illegal for a kid to buy? I would hope not.

And I haven't even touched on the myriad benefits of medicinal marijuana, because it's something I am not really equipped to comment on. But it seems to me that all the people that have sicknesses begging to be able to use it can't be wrong. Hell, if someone is terminally ill, they should be able to snort heroin off a whore's tit for all I care, let them have their fun before they die :D. that was partially a joke! sssshhh

I want someone to please please give me a valid reason that pot should be illegal. Because I sure can't think of one. And no, "it's bad for you" or "you shouldn't need to escape reality" aren't good reasons :).

Bleh, that reminds me of another stupid argument, the whole escape reality one. I have heard that used mostly by people from a religious background, or people who think that pot is a crutch for people with emotional problems ("why do you want to be someone else?"). I think the best answer for that one is: why do you read books, go to movies, watch TV, or listen to music?

[Elidroth]

Originally posted by Maegwin
Drinking is probably the leading cause of rape, sexual assault, spousal abuse and more.

You can't be serious? Drinking is not the cause. The intent is there before the drinking. The leading cause of rape, sexual assault, spousal abuse, etc. is fucking unbalanced people who have no respect for people around them. Simple as that.

There is absolutely ZERO rational for making marijuana illegal except one, that being the amount of money it generates for those who oppose it. Saying it has no benefit is incorrect as well. There are just an incredible amount of uses for hemp outside of the simple smoking of it.

A close examination of the effects of prohibition on American society gives you all the information you need on why marijuana should be decriminalized.

Fucking wake up already..

[Eomer]

No need to get hostile mang! You fucking wake up or something!

[Zappo]

i find this to be a good thing, as cnadians can not get any dumber as is

[Myztlee]

Originally posted by Zappo
i find this to be a good thing, as cnadians can not get any dumber as is

Right, and you amricans are so much more intelligent.

[Eomer]

rofl

[Buazag Bonesteel]

Damn Eomer....that was a crazy long post. Well argued though ;)

[Eomer]

You should have seen the post I made on Dro.net about 6 months ago when that whole sleeper issue had everyone all hot and bothered... that post took me the better part of a day to write :D

[Kenju Weeple]

Have to remeber that marijuana has been known to push some people on to more addictive and dangerous drugs, like heroin and such.

this is only true for 1 reason. the people who actually do(which aren't many i must say) are the people who would already do the hardcore shit, they jsut don't know where to get it. if they didn't have to get pot from drug dealers, they wouldn't know who the drugdealersa re, and thus wont know where to get heroine/coke/crack/ice/whateverelsethey'dwant. if they bought it from gas stations, unless drug dealers setup post outside, they wouldn't get asked "Hey man, wanna try some ice instead of pot? it's like the same thing but different" or have someone say "nah man, i'm out of pot, but i got plenty of coke if you wanan try some."


And if something isn't beneficial to you, it stands to reason that it is BAD for you. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow...but in the long run you will be worse off.

Give me one everyday household product that isn't bad for you. Even every day milk, can cause cancer. Should milk be illigal? i don't want my balls t have to be cut off because it has a chemical in it that can effictly cause cancer in the balls of mice which has been shown to also be true of humans. Even tho, i'm still going to drink milk, it tastes god with my cinnamon rolls, which can also make me fat and obesce. Everything is bad for you in one way or another. just because it's bad don't mean you shouldn't be allowed to use it.


And if drinking is legal, and it has an age limit, but yet kids still go around doing it Illegaly because they are too young, an they go around getting themselves killed because of drunk driving, stupid dares or whatever....you could argue that kids will still abuse marijuana before they are of age.


I think the fact your missing here, kids are already using marijuana. And as quite a few people have already stated, stonned people don't do the stupid things that they do when drunk that can get them killed.

personally, i think everyone should smoke pot atleast once. if you've smoked it once, and can honestly say that it should be illigle, you sir, are a liar. i hardly ever smoke pot anymore because i find it=boring corona=fun and see no reasons why it should be illigel. it doesn't hurt anyone, i have a comic in my wallet that i found, it's got little cartoon charecters of a beer, a cigar, a ciggarete, and a joint. they all talking about how many deaths they've caused and the joint it like "i don't think i belong here" the ciggarette says "great the new numbers are in, i'm still smokin' over 400,00 folks a year" then looks at the joint and says "how many did YOU kill" and the joint is all like "uhh, none, all i caused was over 735,000 arrests" i found it pretty damn amusing considering it's been in my wallet for almost 6 months now... sad thing is, is that it's true.

both my grandfathers died from tobacco related causes, one of my gransmothers is in pretty poor health due to it, and my other grandmother is pretty good shape because she's never smoked. my dad's done had a triple heart bypass or some shit from smoking and was told if he didn't quit he would die. i know one chick, just turned 21, already has kidney problems from drinking to much. 10pp says you can't name anyone who's health is seriously fucked just from smoking pot, or even so much as just moderatly fucked up.


And like, not to be sterotypical or anything but....anyone I've ever met that smokes pot on a regular basis has been a total loser, burn out, basket case, lazy sob...not generally good values that companies look for in the work place.

ask them people what all they do besides just pot. i'm pretty sure you'll get a long list of shit.

one last thing~ if pot were sold at gas stations, there would be less chance of it being laced with who the hell knows what. which would make it cleaner and safer >< dunno about up in canada, but here in atlanta you can get some funky shit from the ghetto.

ps~ i liek runon sentances and commasplices. tks!

[Rika]

I didnt read all the long winded posts, there is not much that needs to be said. Canada has the right idea as far as this issue goes. I cant imagine how much money it will bring into their country and how many MILLIONS of tourists will visit there yearly from US alone if this passes. It will be a huge econo boost. I hope it passes if it does im going for sure =p.

Oh and as far as benefits to myself for smoking marijuna?

Well all i can say is it is a benefit in itself..

When I used to smoke pot (still do rarely) its more of my mind and body entertaining itself. I dont need outside stimuli (book, tv, eq, etc) to be entertained, all i need is me. nuff said about that

This isssue is so lopsided of an argument it frustrates me to hear people on the opposing side.. grrr i hate when these topics arise, just make it legal already so we can stfu talking about it =p

Damn now my post is longwinded too =(

-Rika-

Oh forgot to mention that ive never had more fun than when i used to grow pot plants in my little secret grow room =o
best hobby ever
To bad its illegal =(

Course i used to donate to NORML and go to all the Willie Nelson hemp fests on the capitol steps in Austin too.. those were the days =D

btw good post Eomer

[Rezz]

It's my honest opinoin that if you can't see both sides of an arguement, you shouldn't be involved in the resolution of that arguement. Kinda like the whole eminem/cheney thing. People hear a couple words and assume that it will drive the children of america to killing their wives/kids/people on the street and doing other illegal acts. The fact is, people who do that kinda stuff are not brainwashed from music, they are fucked up period. You can argue all sorts of sides about how alcohol is the leading cause of rape, spousal abuse and sexual offenses, but the simple fact of the matter is, the percentage of people who do drink and cause these things is extremely tiny compared to the total number of people who drink. Logic dictates that it is indeed not the cause of it, otherwise instances would be MUCH higher in accordance to the sheer number of people who drink.

You can argue that pot isn't healthy for you. Neither is junk food. Health has NEVER contributed to illegality in any meaningful way, otherwise smoking would have been outlawed when it was first brought to the new world. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to realize that smoking isn't healthy. Neither is eating bacon every morning for all those farmer types. You simply can't argue that health is any referance point for something being illegal. Last I checked, guns are quite legal and are designed around killing.

The blanket arguement that pot, smoking and alcohol should all be illegal is moot. If we lived under a communist regime or dictatorship, then I would totally understand that kind of mentality. However, last I heard, this is America, Land of the Free and all that loveliness. The very thing you argue is an affront to personal freedom, the ability for the government to decide what we can and can't do without the consent of the people they govern. No, I'm not throwing the patriotism thing at you, just a simple fact of the country (countries I guess, you could totally argue that north dakota is a little bit of canada that broke off =\) The fact is, the majority of people who actually research marijauna have stated that there isn't any reason for it not to be legal. The pros of making it legal far outweigh the cons of keeping it illegal.

I feel like I'm on some debate team or some shit.

[kasarina]

In my working experience, i have found that this particular drug contributes alot to the medical profession, especially in multiple sclerosis. Many patients need it is a vital part of helping with relaxation of muscles, but due to the current legislation, it is very hard for people to be granted trials etc, thus meaning people having to resort to buying the drug illegal and risk in-prisonment for it. In my opinion this is very wrong!

As to the addictive factors, i disagree, i feel that it is up to the individual, and how far they take it ,as strahd said eq is a addiction so is smoking, drinking and chocolate <not that i am confessing>, yes it may not be on the same as level as taking drugs, but it is still an addiction. Many people i know are weed users, but are NOT addicted they enjoy it to just relax maybe at the end of a bad week. I have found also that people using weed are less aggressive and as a lot of studies have shown drugs in general are more calming in comparison to those who drink.

Drinking as stated earlier does have many anti social and aggressive side effects. How many people do you know who smoke weed start fights and become a abusive? Then compare this to those who smoke weed?

In my opinion i feel that ALL drugs should be legalised, it is up to the individual, and in all honesty people would see it as being 'less' trendy and reduce crime.

well... said my piece:rolleyes:

[Tarissa]

"In my opinion i feel that ALL drugs should be legalised, it is up to the individual, and in all honesty people would see it as being 'less' trendy and reduce crime."

Oh boy. You really think people are smart enough to know what's best for them when it comes to drugs that can be so habit forming and addictive that it eventually kills them?

Legalized heroine? Crack? uh omg?

[Arcius]

yes it may not be on the same as level as taking drugs, but it is still an addiction

Addiction is good for business! Just look at the most widely used drug, caffiene. Everything Pepsi sells is like crack in a can :|

We might as well legalize Marijuana and if not we should make alcohol and tobacco illegal. I think the legalization of all drugs is insane, though. Crack, heroin, etc...many of these drugs can kill you and they are 100x more addictive than Marijuana.

[Eomer]

I read one time that there has basically only been one death that can sort of be attributed to pot smoking. Apparently some guy was stoned out of his gourd, just absolutely blasted, and had a serious case of the munchies. Apparently he continued to eat and eat until his stomach ruptured, and then bled to death. The lethal dose of THC is so high that one person would have to smoke so much pot in a short period of time that it is essentially impossible, it's in the pounds I think.

I don't think the highly addictive drugs should be made legal, like coke, heroin, crack etc. But softer ones like mushrooms, acid, hell maybe even ecstasy (never done it, dunno if it's addictive or not) should be at the very least decriminalized (so you only get a fine and not charged).

And instead of throwing people in jail, they should try to help rehabiliate them. Jail does nothing for someone, other than make someone a better criminal when they get out. It's like criminal college.

[Kaedir]

hey Hoss, was reading the posts and I wanted to add my 2 cents to this. I've been smoking pot for about 5 months now. All my life I was raised to think that drugs are bad and all that mess. About 5 months ago, I was chilling at a friends house and 4 of my friends busted out their weed and bongs, and started smoking. I still hadn't tried it so I went to the otherside of the room cause I thought it was "bad" for me. They kept asking me if I wanted to try it, I said no thanx. They kept bugging me about it and tried to explain to me that it's not that bad for you, all you do is feel good and relaxed, I still said no. Finally, I moved to where they were so I could watch some t.v. The bong was being passed around and one of em handed it to me. He said, just take a hit, and if you still thinks its bad, we wont bug you about it. I thought for a second and I was like, fuck it, can't hurt to try it. So i sparked the bowl and preceded to hit the bowl. I took 2 hits and passed the bong. I didn't feel anything at first, but then after bout 5 minutes, I just felt relaxed and was feeling good. I was pretty high off those 2 hits so I just layed on the bed and chilled for an hour. Since then, me and my friends have been going out, smoking, partying etc. My parents know that I smoke it, they werent too happy when they found out. I tried explaining to them that its not dangerous or bad as they were told when they were younger, but they refuse to believe me. And the funny thing is, they've never even tried it once so everything they say to me about how bad it is, is BS to me since they have no idea what its like. Sorry for the long post, my point is that don't knock it till you try it. Before you go out preaching about how bad it is for you, go out and try it yourself or with some friends before you make BS statements about it. Peace~

[Rezz]

I'm not sure acid and ecstasy should be classified as soft drugs. Ecstasy seriously fucks with your nervous system, and acid has the "acid flashback" effect of reoccuring symptoms. Shrooms however, probably could be classified under soft drugs along with pot, tobacco and caffeine. Stuff that can kill you in an extremely short time if it's not prepared right (coke, crack, heroin) should remain illegal imo, simply because they are designed to be addictive and make money. You are far less likely to experience withdrawls with pot, caffeine and alcohol than you are with any of the harder drugs. Tobacco is also designed around being addictive, but it's been legal for hundreds of years, you don't fuck with traditional addictions.

I think one of the biggest plusses that I don't think was mentioned is that by legalizing mary jane, you effectively remove a large portion of drug dealing companies in south america and mexico profit line, which will also injure their general operations. That and if pot is legal, it will be cheaper to grow, so crimerate will also decline a little due to no longer needing to rob a liquor store to pay for your weed. Granted, I know that people robbing quickie marts and what not to pay for addictions generally don't do it for pot, but that is a bonus that could be infered!

[Maegwin]

I don't know...I'm just not sold on the idea. It's not that I hate pot, or people who smoke pot. I have had many friends who used it often as a relaxant ( basketball players ), before games.

But, I have this nagging feeling that things don't just become super duper gee whiz hunkey dorey by legalizing pot. I mean, if legalizing pot DID cause a huge economic hit to the major drug cartel's in South America, and wherever they are...what will they do to get their money back? They aren't stupid, if they stop making money on pot, maybe they'll turn their full attention on making more of the other more dangerous drugs.

And what happens when the supply of crack and cocaine goes up, and it becomes easier to get? I think, as the law of supply and demand dictates, supply goes up, cost goes down.

If it's easier to buy, more people will do it, and thats not what we need.

Granted this is hypothetical, because I'm making the assumption that the cartels would change to producing more of these dangerous drugs, but that doesn't seem like a very long stretch to me at all. I mean, it's not like the drug cartels will just give up, right?

This whole post wasn't exactly an argument against legalizing pot, but at least it gives a little larger picture...try to think about what might happen outside of your own neighborhood if pot was legalized

[Vinilaa]

Originally posted by Phaera
*takes all Vini's papers and runs off* :p

Actually I don't smoke marijuana anymore. :p My vices at this point in my life consist of sex, the occasional glass of red wine, too much caffiene, foreign films and banned books. :D

And Eomer, I would say our governments are unmatched in giving rights to the few, not the many ;) In terms of rights for the 'majority of the people' there are western European countries that have the US and Canada beat.

[Eomer]

I think acid flashbacks are not nearly as common as people seem to think. I know a fair amount of people who did it, including myself, and I have never heard of someone having one. And I agree that maybe acid shouldn't be considered a soft drug, it's hard to say really. There haven't been very many studies about it's long/short term effects on people.

As far as ecstasy goes, I have never done it, nor have I read much about it. It could very well be really bad for you, I don't know.

[Rezz]

Hah, the health aspect isn't really what I was getting at about ecstasy or acid, just that they are certainly harder (personal experience with ecstasy, none with acid but I've seen the effects) than pot or shrooms. And ecstasy is kinda wierd, I haven't read any studies that said it's addictive by any chemical means, but the feeling is certainly addictive to an extreme. One of my close friends had a problem with poppin tabs in school because he's a dumbass, he had like 15 possession counts, because it's not too hard to figure out when someone is trippin on the shit heh.

And that is a very good point Maegwin, because I do doubt that they would simply curl up and die because they lose buisness with pot (though I think most pot isn't really trafficed by the south american drug cartels, it's mostly mexican imports. But there are farms of it and what not in south america and it does get shipped to the US, just not nearly in as great a quantities as mexican) I just fully think that if pot were legalized, people wouldn't have to sneak around to get their fix, and it would reduce sales overall to your average coke/crack/heroin user. As Kenju said, a lot of the reason that people call pot a "gateway" drug is because since it's illegal, you frequently have to go to dealers to get it. And dealers are always trying to sell their more expensive shit, so they throw the "it's the same as pot, but better" thing at you regarding stuff such as ice, coke and what have you. If people can go to the store or grow pot at home, there would be less instances of people not already addicted to the harder stuff to become addicted to it. But I agree and after rethinking my point about the south american drug cartels taking a hit, they probably wouldn't feel the effects nearly as much as mexican drug runners.

[Vinilaa]

Originally posted by Tarissa
"In my opinion i feel that ALL drugs should be legalised, it is up to the individual, and in all honesty people would see it as being 'less' trendy and reduce crime."

Oh boy. You really think people are smart enough to know what's best for them when it comes to drugs that can be so habit forming and addictive that it eventually kills them?

Legalized heroine? Crack? uh omg?

Read Gore Vidal's essay on Drugs...

"Often Vidal has been pointedly controversial, as when he supported legalization of illegal drugs - it would remove the Mafia from the drug market. "It is possible to stop most drug addiction in the United States within a very short time. Simply make all drugs available and sell them at cost. Label each drug with a precise description of what effect—good or bad—the drug will have on the taker." (The New York Times, 1970; from The Last Empire, 2001)"

If drugs were legallized, there would be little point in processing opium poppies into heroin or cocoa leaf into crack cocaine. The profit motive would be gone and the labor intensive growing and processing of these plants would probably decrease to the point of being inconsequential. The fact that drugs are illegal is what makes them so profitable, take away the profit motive and you'll see a decline in drug traffic.

Also as to the argument that the government should "protect people who aren't smart enough to refrain from killing themselves with drugs." The fact that drugs are illegal doesn't prevent people from killing themselves with them now. Decriminalizing drugs would free-up billions of dollars that could be directed toward drug treatment and rehabilitization, things that would actually treat the root problem (addiction).

[Torrid]

I used to think "yeah more rights for the individual, then them die if they want to" but I don't think that way for drugs anymore. (cept maybe mary jane, only because there has yet to be a documented case of someone dying from an overdose, and its physical addiction is still debated)

Cocaine and Heroine will physicaly get you addicted. Its not just in your head. If drugs were legal, access to them will be extremely easy to stupid kids, and they will get addicted and kill themselves. Its just going to happen. Look at smoking today. Tons of kids smoke. People are going to think "well the government lets it be sold, so it must not be that bad." I'd rather have today's mafia then half our children dying. The white trash on cops, I could give a rats ass about though. (ok, maybe a little)

I've seen a few studies done on drug abuse and what it does to the brain. That changed my mind without much of a fight.

Btw, alcohol will destory your ability to learn after a couple decades. Once those brain cells die, you never get them back. And people call me strange for not drinking.

[Eomer]

That's if you are a hardcore drinker though Torrid. In moderation it isn't that bad for you.

And I strongly believe that by making drugs illegal, it actually makes them easier to attain for kids than if they were controlled substances.

Ask any 17 year old kid in high school how hard it is to get weed, mushrooms, acid, or ecstasy. It's nearly as easy as getting alcohol or tobacco, and in some cases easier. And it's not like getting alcohol or tobacco is all that hard in the first place. Hell here if you can drive, you can buy liquour, more or less.

Having things illegal does little to reduce their availability. The past 100 years of prohibition on drugs has clearly demonstrated that.

[Eomer]

http://www.cnn.com/2002/HEALTH/parenting/09/05/drug.use.survey/index.html

"One of the most disturbing findings of the survey is that marijuana use has gone up, and the perception is that it is not harmful," said Secretary of Health and Human Services Tommy Thompson.

"My friends, the idea that marijuana is benign is completely inaccurate. It's dangerous in it's own right, it's addictive, and it leads to the use of even more destructive illicit drugs.

"The hard scientific data about those facts -- that marijuana is damaging to the brain, to motor skills, to the heart and the nervous system, and that it is the first step toward drugs like heroin and cocaine -- are indisputable."

I have yet to see a recent study, done in logical manner, that prove any of what this person said. Most of what they said is absolute bullshit, in fact.

[Eomer]

Excerpt from an article on Newscientist.com about one of the so-called studies that "prove" pot makes you stupid:

In tests such as memorising a list of 15 words, the long-term users recalled 8.5 words on average, 2.5 fewer than both the short-term users and 31 non-users. The long-term users were also slower at mental arithmetic. But in in other tasks, such as sorting cards, they were just as quick.

Both groups of users also tended to over-estimate the time it took them to complete a task, thinking it had taken them a third longer than it really had.

The authors conclude that cannabis has a cognitive effect that lasts beyond the period of intoxication and that the longer you smoke, the worse the effect on memory and attention. "We do not know exactly how that translates into real-world problems," admits team member Robert Stephens, a psychologist at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University. Nevertheless, he thinks long-term users might not function as well in day-to-day life.

But there are other explanations for the results. For example, it was only 17 hours on average since the users had last smoked a joint, and some had smoked just 12 hours earlier. Harrison Pope, a psychiatrist at Harvard Medical School in Boston, says other studies, including one he published last year comparing 108 users with 72 non-users, reveal no long-term effects. One difference, he says, is that his subjects were tested 28 days after they had last smoked.




Wow, whoever did that first study sure wasn't trying to skew results now was he?

[GainDRO]

Though I don't smoke pot, I think that pot should be legalized from an economics stand point. In the US since the 1980's there has been apporximately 500,000 arrests made for possesion, intent to distribute, etc etc etc due to pot. In order to keep an inmate in prison it costs approximately $25,000-28,000 per year. Though not all of those arrests led to a conviction with prison time, that still adds up to a few billion dollars, add to that the fact that drug possesion laws are becoming increasingly harsher, ie longer prison terms and such, and that will equate to even more money that WE have to pay for. Also keep in mind this does not include the cost of the man power necessary to fight the "War on Drugs."

Currently the US has a budget deficit of apporximately two-hundred billion ($200,000,000) dollars. HELLO, legalize pot and we end up with a budget surplus.

Well what about all the money that is taken in due to drug raids you ask. Well, first off, that only equates to a small portion of what it costs to enforce the current drug laws: secondly if pot is legalized institute a "sin tax" similar to the taxes already placed on alcohol and tobacco products.

For those who think pot is a gateway drug......WRONG. One of the major reasons people start to smoke pot is because it is taboo. Take that away and pot use will decline.

[Mitsy]

I wouldn't classify Ecstasy or acid as a soft drug. Both can kill you in a short amount of time. I'll give two examples why.

When I was 16 years old this friend of mine used to smoke pot with her mom all the time. They would also do acid alot. One morning her mom thought it would be funny to pop a few hits into the milk in her cerial when she was't looking. Long story short the acid was tainted and she ended up in the hospital. She is now in a wheelchair and can't talk or walk. She is basically a vegitable.

Two years ago this heavy acid user boarded a plane from florida to LA ( i think). He wanted to sneak a sheet of acid with him. So like any uber smart drug addict. He taped it to his chest. (If you don't know acid can be absorbed through the pours in your skin). So he basically ODed on the plane and went into cardiac arrest. He did survive the incident. But what I don't like about acid is. Anyone can slip you some if your not looking. A small tab on the back of the neck when your not paying attention etc etc. Also, not sure how factual this is but I heard that if you have never used acid before 10 hits would kill you?

Ecstasy is lethal as well. Too much of it, and it will kill you. Ecstasy is basically GHB which very lethal, a table spoonfull could kill you, some sellers dilute it in water before selling to lessen the effect. There is a TV add going around in Arizona about a girl who died not too long ago and the only drug in her system was E.

Granted legalization of it might prevent bad acid from being made. But like someone else said in this thread. Any drug that might be bad if made wrong shouldn't be legal. Anything you can OD from shouldn't be made legal. Vs pot cant be exploited. You can't slip someone a pot hit or get them high by contact. Plus I would rather not have some driver high on acid swerve to miss the big purple elephant in the road to hit some child on the side walk =).


Mitsy

[Tilea]

"Btw, alcohol will destory your ability to learn after a couple decades. Once those brain cells die, you never get them back. And people call me strange for not drinking."

That's true Torrid, but you're talking about someone who drinks habitually for that long. Social drinkers such as moi, who only drink on some weekends with friends won't ever kill anywhere near enuogh brain cells to suffer that kind of damage. The first effect though is a reduction in short term memory. And that doesn't really take too much to happen.

[Vinilaa]

While I am not necessarily arguing in favor of the wholesale legalization of all drugs there are some arguments here that should be thought through logically:

1. Legalizing drugs hasn't been shown to increase use. To say that if you legalize 'x substance' it will be more prevalent is a specious argument. You have to prove that this will indeed happen, it is not reasonable to make this assumption based on the facts presented.

The facts that have been stated seem to suggest that legalization would in fact reduce use.

2. People currently OD, become addicted, and dose unwitting strangers (to use Mitsy's example), based on the fact that these things occur in the status quo the logical realization is that the war on drugs is not one that we are winning. The prohibition of drugs is NOT preventing these things from happening. And the reason we continue to pump billions of dollars into a failed program is because people are motivated by fear to believe the specious argument that drug use will increase if drugs are legalized. This argument has yet to be proven.

In fact the evidence is quite to the contrary. In Amsterdam, where pot is legal and other harder drugs are essentially decriminalized, drug use has actually gone down. The same can be said for many other countries where so-called "controlled substances" in this country are legal drugs that can be purchased over-the-counter.

Do some research and see for yourself. This is a very serious issue and one that we all need to think about critically.

We could take the money we currently spend on the failed war on drugs and put it into drug education and treatment. We could put addicts into rehabilitation programs instead of jail. We could solve the problem of drug addiction instead of turning addicts into criminals.

Being on a drug should not be a crime. Being on a drug while committing a crime should not be a defense for committing the crime.

Until we seriously look into addiction and the reasons for drug use, drug use will continue. We need to treat the cause not the symptom.

EDIT I actually believe that if people were better informed and told the truth about drugs and drug use they would actually make better decisions about drug use and choose not to use them. Currently we have no such education.

Drug use is a very complicated issue and isn't one that is solved by throwing drug users in jail. If anything it makes them feel more isolated and more disenfranchised and contributes to the addiction rather than cure it.

[Torrid]

One of my teachers at my school is in the field of memory, learning, and the human brain. He took a day or two to show us how drugs fuck you up. He showed us brain scans that show areas of the brain that now have little blood flow because all the neurons in those areas are dead. Pot kills your brain, alcohol kills your brain, smoking, coke, heroine, etc. Lots of money and attention have been put into studies. I could explain how drugs block neurotransmiters and whatnot, but I won't. My teacher practices what he preaches too, he refused any pain killers for his medical procedures.

A lot of this shit is common sense too. If youre a researcher in the field, and all your old-time users come in acting like zombies, then any fool and see that drugs fuck you up.

They are only a few years away from a drug vacine that completely nullifies any affects. Only real problem is morphine and other such drugs used for hospital treatments would also be affected. Research into other methods of killing pain is of course a somewhat high priority now.

[Drakky]

Ahaha!

I will just sit back and laugh at the people that want these drugs to be legal. Ya... Duh! I think they should be legal because they are GOOD for you!! Alcohol is good for you too!! Duh, didn't you know that's why everyone drinks Alcohol and does drugs? It's because it's good for you, jfc!

Drugs are your friend! Alcohol is your friend!

Oh... and don't give me these medical reasons bullshit either - go to the damn doctor and if he ok's taking the drugs, then I'm fine with it too. Until the doctor says so, you're full of fuckin' shit though.

[Qaediin]

Doctors have "opinions" and alot of doctors have alot of different opinions. Whos to say which doctor is right? /shrug

[Maegwin]

If you're going to argue that legalizing drugs makes drug use go down, that is just a spacious argument as saying that they will go up. There's no hard facts either way, one case here or there isn't enough to say which way it would go with pot.

Alcohol was legalized, and I don't think you can say that alcohol use has declined...I don't know the numbers but the alcohol industry has GOT to be one of the richest industries in the world. You can't walk two blocks in most villages,towns,cities without finding an establishment SOLELY devoted to the sale of alcohol, whether it be a bar or a liquor store.

Pot could go the same way, and then instead of a "rebellious, me against the world" type of drug using experience, where you can feel like you're persecuted and nobody understands you, You would have committees and huge corporations making billions of dollars off of the controlled sale of pot, that sit in their little conference rooms, discussing their favorite golf courses in the carribbean, while you shell out your last 7.25 for another pack of joints, and your kid doesn't get cereal for breakfast the next morning.

If I were you, I would be happy that weed is "if anything, easier to get than alcohol or cigarettes". I mean, if it's so easy to get, everything should be fine...and as long as you aren't a moron and get caught smoking it in public then you wouldn't have a problem...

[Maegwin]

I can just see all the poor schmucks blaming the government for their addiction to pot because the government legalized it.

[Famor]

Okay some of you guys make no sense when you say something, I've read about 4 times drug addiction is a problem, but when you smoke weed you don't do it once a month or once a week you do it about every day maybe miss one day a week, that would be an addiction. So either you do it and your addicted or you don't do it at all.

and yeah I'm against the legalization of weed because, what's next to be legalized? acid?

[Vinilaa]

I'm not really sure what a "spacious" argument is. :p As for the idea that I haven't proven my claim that drug use has been shown to go down in places where it is decriminalized please read my post again and you will see that I gave you a specific, Holland. You can look up the evidence for youself if you do not believe me.

The same is true for prohibition of alcohol. Please read your history books. Prohibition did NOTHING to decrease alcohol consumption. All it did was increase crime and make a lot of scumbags rich off of bootlegging.

I think the root of the problem here is that most of you are thinking of "the people" as a mass of idiots who need to be babysat and "the government" as this benevolent parental entity that protects "the people" from themselves. I guess if you buy into this schema (which I don't) then legalizing drugs ("oh my!") would indeed be a bad thing.

However, I ask you to consider this, is the fact that drugs are illegal the thing that prevents you from using them? Is the fact that they are illegal keeping those who will try them from using them? The educated answer has to be no to both questions. So obviously something is wrong with the system.

Education and drug treatment are what combat drug use NOT the legal status of the substance. Whether drugs are illegal or not is not what makes some people use them and some people not use them. (Torrid has proven that Drug Education works with his statements on why he thinks drugs are bad).

With that in mind it only stands to reason that the criminal status of these substances is causing more harm than good. I hope I don't need to list the harms of drug trafficking here... They should be self evident. I think that taking the criminal element out of the equation entirely is what will truly combat the problem. Drug education and treatment could be funded with the massive amounts of money currently being used to enforce our (failed) drug laws.

The fact that drug use is so prevalent even though drugs are illegal should tell you that the current laws are not working. I have yet to see any of you prove otherwise. :cool:

Peace

[Eomer]

Torrid, if pot destroys your brain so badly, then why are there numerous studies that show otherwise? The only studies I have read that say that pot does indeed wreck your brain almost always have shitty methods of determining it, and are almost always backed by the US Gov't. Indepedent studies are nearly unanimous in agreement that pot doesn't destroy your brain. I am not saying it does no damage, that would be a silly assumption to make. Of course it's going to do a wee bit. But claiming that anyone who does it will turn into a zombie is stupid.

As far as addiction goes, YES IT IS ADDICTIVE TO CERTAIN PERSONALITIES. No one will argue that. However, it is NOT chemically addictive in the way that alcohol, heroin, cocaine, nicotine, or even fucking caffeine are. I saw my sister go through full bore caffeine withdrawal (she used to drink a ridiculous amount per day while going to university, then decided to quit for Lent), while it was hilarious from my perspective, she was a total mess for close to two weeks.

And Drakky, nobody here is arguing that pot is "good for you" when used as a recreational drug. It isn't, it's common sense that it wouldn't be. The point has been made though, that it is not nearly as bad as so many other things that are perfectly legal, societally accepted, and often encouraged.

In terms of medicinal usage, pot really IS good for people. To deny it from them because of hundred year old misconceptions, myths, and police propaganda is pure stupidity.

I would bet money that the majority if doctors would be in favor of medicinal use of pot. But guess what? They aren't the ones who determine whether it is safe or not, unless they themselves are doing studies on it.


Pot could go the same way, and then instead of a "rebellious, me against the world" type of drug using experience, where you can feel like you're persecuted and nobody understands you, You would have committees and huge corporations making billions of dollars off of the controlled sale of pot, that sit in their little conference rooms, discussing their favorite golf courses in the carribbean, while you shell out your last 7.25 for another pack of joints, and your kid doesn't get cereal for breakfast the next morning.

Uh, have you even bothered reading a single one of my posts? What would you fucking prefer? Corporations selling it at the same current street prices, being taxed to shit by the various levels of gov't, and the gov't using that revenue for useful programs. Or would you prefer that biker gangs and drug cartels continue to make billions off of it, paying no taxes, and using that money to fund other crime. It's a pretty clear cut, obvious decision to make. It is a proven fact that making it illegal DOES NOTHING TO REDUCE DEMAND OR SUPPLY. The only thing it does is increase crime related to it, and make criminals fucking rich.

I mean christ, if making it illegal is doing such a good job, how come Friday night at a football game of 62000 people, was I never able to avoid the smell of pot drifting through the air? Every bathroom you go into reeks of it. Making it illegal sure is doing a good job.


If I were you, I would be happy that weed is "if anything, easier to get than alcohol or cigarettes". I mean, if it's so easy to get, everything should be fine...and as long as you aren't a moron and get caught smoking it in public then you wouldn't have a problem...

When I say weed is easier to get the alcohol or cigarettes, I am not talking about an 18+ (or 19, or 21, whatever it is wher eyou live) adult. I am talking about kids in school. So you are saying the status quo right now, of pot being easily available to school-age children is just fine with you? Christ, you're worse than me! :)

And that's the problem, all it takes is one cop having a bad day catching you smoking at a concert or wherever, and suddenly the rest of your life is fucked. Who were you hurting, other than yourself? No one. It's just ridiculous.

[Drakky]

Man, we have enough fucking morons in this world using drugs just because it makes them "happy". Making this shit legal would just make the world an even more shitty place than it already is.

I see no reason to make any of these drugs legal. I didn't even read this whole thread, but from what I have read this thread is stupid. You argue other stuff is worse for you and it's not illegal - like what? And what are you implying here? Just because other stuff is worse for you and it's not illegal that means they should make it legal to use drugs? What kind of moronic logic is that? No fucking shit there is a lot of bad things that's not illegal, the list would go on forever. You should be arguing to make this "worse" stuff illegal instead of making drugs legal.

Damn... they better making shoving a stick up your ass illegal because that's almost as bad. Haha, get my point? No? It should be pretty obvious - the point is they can't go through every little thing and make it illegal, that would take forever.

[Eomer]

Well, if you won't bother reading previous posts, there is no point replying to you. I and others have already answered or debunked any arguments you just made in previous posts, there is no point doing it again.

[Drakky]

Cool, well consider my post responding to them then!

[Maegwin]

Eomer, if you re-read my post, I thought it was pretty clear that when I talked about the corporations making billions of the legalized sale off pot, my tone was intended to imply that it would be BAD! I don't want huge corporations making billions off of people for YET ANOTHER addictive drug.

I also don't see how you could construe my statements as me saying it's ok for underage children to smoke pot. What I AM saying is that, given the choice between two evils, I would rather the kids be able to obtain pot ( since it's so easy, as you say ) the way they do now, than to see it become commercialized and advertised on my fucking television.

[Maegwin]

Vin, I didn't say that prohibition decreased alcohol usage...I said that legalization of alcohol DIDN'T decrease the alcohol usage either...so that argument that legalizing a drug will always decrease it's usage does not hold water.

[Torrid]

Heh I don't care what any of you say. Criminalization of drugs and the US taskforce dedicated to keeping it out keeps the level of drugs in the country lower than what it would be if it were legal. There still may be a significant ammount, but it IS less. Its common sense. Its may not be very cost effective, but its doing somthing.

I also think comparing crack cocaine to booze is kinda silly. Its not really a fair comparision. For one thing, alcohol isn't as addictive or deadly (although its deffinately bad for your health).

I'd be the first to agree that education is by far the best method of stopping drug use. However I would couple it with criminalization. The notion that people will do drugs for the sole reason that it is illegal is silly. I would, however, dramaticaly reduce absurd sentences for only using drugs. They need help not jail. Pushers should get locked up though.

[Vinilaa]

Torrid: I agree with you, I think decriminalization for users, not pushers, would be an effective model. Drug addicts need rehabilitation not jail. Jail does nothing to combat drug addiction.

I won't even bring up the fact that it's easier to get drugs while in prison than out on the street...

If we treated addiction, so-called "recreational drugs" would vanish. It's the principle of supply and demand. As long as there is demand, there will be a supply. If you take away demand, there is no reason to supply a product. As long as people want to use drugs; as long as people want to alter their consciousness and numb their emotions, drugs will be used whether legally or illegally (people also get addicted to prescription and over-the-counter drugs). As long as it's profitable for drug pushers and pharmecutical companies to make and supply those drugs the drugs will be available (the distinction between "street-drugs" and pharmecutical drugs is completely arbitrary btw).

The only distinction between street drugs and pharmecutical drugs is wealth. Wealthy addicts can afford doctors and prescriptions, while poor addicts have to make due with what they can get on the street.

Let's think about this though. If education and treatment are what combat drug addiction then why are we pumping billions of dollars into the war on drugs? How can we possibly justify that waste?

Torrid says it reduces availability. I don't agree with that. The drugs don't suddenly not end up in this country just because of the DEA, the drugs just change hands. Instead of dealer #1 getting rich, dealer #2 gets rich instead. Bribes are made, people look the other way, etc. If you think there is no corruption in the system please do some research on the subject.

The war on drugs is a billion dollar bandaid that makes people feel like they're doing something about the problem when in reality they are doing nothing to combat addiction. Making certain drugs illegal makes no real difference in terms of addiction. It just makes the average citizen feel better... The rallying cry of "there ought to be a law" is answered and everyone pats themselves on the back.

But the reality is that crack babies are still being born, kids are still ODing on ecstasy, cocaine and heroin... The problem is not being solved. IF the problem of drug addiction is not being solved by making these substances illegal then you have to seriously question whether or not the law itself is doing anything.

To take Drakky's example, I am not sure if putting a stick up my ass is legal or not (I didn't bother to look it up in the law books) and the legality of it is beside the point. If it is legal, that certainly doesn't mean I'm going to do it. And conversely, if someone out there thinks "woohoo party, I'm gonna put a stick in my ass!" do you really think a law is going to stop them?

Maegwin: I gave you a couple of examples to warrant my claim. The facts do indeed suggest that legalizing drugs does in fact reduce usage. However, even if it makes no difference either way, if the legal status of drugs doesn't increase or decrease usage then why pour billions into the enforcement of a law that obviously doesn't make a change in the status quo? Frankly, to me, it makes no sense. ;)

[Eomer]

http://www.theonion.com/onion3833/wdyt_3833.html

"They're legalizing pot, plus they already have free health care and almost no crime? Now, why exactly do we always make fun of them, again?"

"The last thing we need is a glut of web sites explaining how, if you watch Strange Brew while listening to Rush's 2112, it all matches up."

That second comment made me fall out of my fucking chair :/

[Drakky]

pfft...

...

...

someone get me out of this country

[Eomer]

Drakky I am coming to Winnipeg with an ounce and a fucking mission, by the time I leave you will be sniffing patchouli and wearing birkenstocks. MARK MY FUCKING WORDS.