Canada's local jackass - Prime Minister Cretien

[Tilea]

Well if you guys want to blast Canada for soemthing, blast us for having a leader with zero tact and no ability to think before he speaks. Yesterday while the US was paying tribute to the people who died in NY last year, our retard of a prime minister made a statement saying he believes it's the "greed of the western world" that lead to the september 11th attacks. It was all over the papers today, with mixed reaction from the public. Some people actually liked what he said, and the rest were outraged.

If you're intelligent, you're not going to say something like that when everything you say represents an entire nation. If you're even basically intelligent, you're sure as hell not going to say it on a day like Septmber 11th, 2002.

Thanks Jean, you're a real class act. Thank God you're not going to seek re-election.

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/09/12/pm_reax020912

[Exitilus]

Was it insensitive? Yes.

Did it need to be said? Yes. (though, not on the anniversary of the event)


-Exitilus, Canadian

[Tilea]

Did it need to be said? No. Claiming that the US was targetted because they're wealthier than other nations is ludicrous. Hell if those countries would stop spending all their money on weapons for all of their tribes and different factions to fight eachother with, they'd probably have a better economy. That's hardly the fault of any western country.

[Exitilus]

Firstly, most of their arms were supplied by the US themselves, at some time or other. Secondly, it's not technically their wealth either, but the near absolute control the US has over the world's economy, coupled with their near invulnerability militarily; smashing planes into buildings and other such underhanded tactics is just about the only way terrorist organizations can even graze them.

-Exitilus

[Tilea]

oh, ok.. so it's alright for them to do things like that then, since the poor babies don't have any other alternative? Thanks for enlightening me.

[Vidmer]

The funny thing about attributing the motivations to others is that we usually attribute our own beliefs onto their actions. Thus we get the equally silly explanations of "They attacked us because of our freedom" and "They attacked us because of modern western imperialism".

Such explanaitions also assume that the motivations are the same for every person involved in such actions.

Statements like these are merely political ploys designed to rally those that agree with the statement and enrage those that disagree. The public sentiment is then used to justify implementing policies the politician believed in before the crucial event took place. Thus we get politicians telling us that the solution to the current crisis is a solution that existed long before the crisis occured. In the immediate aftermath of 9-11 the attacks were used to justify continuing on the NMD program as well as being used to justify the forgiving of 3rd world debt.

So just realize that while Cretien may be a jackass he is not alone in this distinction.

[Eomer]

Tilea, those remarks were stated in an interview in July, the CBC chose to air them on September 11th. Blame them. And you are inaccurately paraphrasing them, IMO. He said that the overwhelming wealth of the Western countries (never once did he single out the US, he made a point of that) may have contributed to the motivation for the attacks.

Normally I hate that gutless arrogant cheat, he has fucked our country quite badly over the past 10 years, especially the west (hi Alberta is being drained of cash so that fisherman in Nfld can sit on their asses collecting EI for years on end).

However, I agree with him. His main point was not that it's somehow the US's fault they were attacked. His main point was that the West (Europe, North America etc) is becoming too rich compared to the rest of the world, and too powerful. He also points out that if you use your power recklessly and embarass and humiliate other nations, it will come back to bite you in the ass. Both things I whole heartedly agree with. The West is continuing to become wealthier and wealthier, while lots of places in the Middle East, Asia, and Africa if anything are regressing. Something has to be done.

[Tremaile]

While we're at it, lets just go right out and say that the USA deserved what it got. /rude Chretien.

I for one have never supported the Liberal Campaign (being from the western provinces myself I was always more of a Manning supporter. No love of Stockwell Day tho *sighs*).

Nobody, I repeat NOBODY, deserves what happened. I think I'm gonna go donate some more blood, just for the heck of it.

-Tremaile

[Lonskils]

so in eq terms we got trained becuase we are uber and they arent, that is so ghey that I cannot put words to it

Lons

[Torrid]

No, the reason why we got planes thrown at us is because we piss the Muslin world off by doing stuff like accidentaly blowing up one of THEIR airplanes with 300 people on it, then giving the guy who did it a medal. Yes, that happened a couple decades ago. But you don't see that on the news. Gotta love the history channel.

[Eomer]

Tremaile, read the full text of what he said. Nowhere does he say the US deserved it. Nowhere does he say it was justified. Don't get me wrong, I hate Chretien and am glad he is finally going to be gone in a few years. But everyone is taking his words out of context and using them against him. And it's only going to hurt Canada in general.

And again, his remarks were not made recently, it's a three month old interview.

By the way, anyone hear how Israel intelligence agents are again posing as Canadians? They even set up a fake embassy somewhere in the West Bank that they took a Palestinian to, convinced him that he would get free passage to Canada in return for information about Hamas, and then once they got their info they tossed him away. He will now face a firing squad of Palestinians for betraying them.

Israel did this same bullshit a few years ago. They sent two assasins to Jordan to kill a Hamas leader, both carrying Canadian passports. They denied it at first, then later admitted it and said it wouldn't happen again. They never apologized. Now those fuckers are at it again.

[Nexten]

I might be wrong but wasn't the hamas leader one of the guys responsible for the killing of the Olympic athletes from Israel..If so i think it's justified

[Eomer]

No. it is NEVER justified to endanger the citizens of another country, w/o first asking that country for their fucking permission. The Israeli government pulling this shit is making it dangerous for Canadians to travel in Palestinians and other Muslim areas. They have NO FUCKING RIGHT whatsoever to lie and claim their agents are Canadian.

And like I said, they outright lied about it last time, then eventually admitted to it, yet not once did they issue any sort of apology. Again they have been caught lying about it, and again they have been caught. I am so sick and fucking tired of the bullshit they pull (drop a bomb, kill one hamas leader and 9 children etc etc), that doing this is inexcusable. It has not been verified, and probably never will, but personally I believe the Palestinian. He has nothing to lose or gain by lying anymore, he knows he is dead.

[Qaediin]

Hehe what do you want them to say eomer, Hi! we are really israeli agents and we are here to kill your terrorist leaders! Move please while i pull out my gun and shoot him in the head. What do you think terrorist organizations do, stop and ask hey pal are you canadian or american? Oh your canadian? You can move on cause we are friendly with you!!. Umm hell no, that doesnt happen. You are "profiled" as being an enemy by the way you look, dress and speak(if given time to say anything) BLAM! Your obit is in the next days paper. To totally disagree with exitulus would be wrong, i think other nations of the "powerful" status should help, such as more medicine, improved disposal of waste, better irrigation and clean water for starters. But here is where you run into a problem, the leaders of some of those nations do NOT want our help unless its in funds to their government and they will umm cough take care of it. Plus add the money the powerful nations have contributed to these countries, the forgiving of massive debt owed to them. So what i am saying is its easy to say HEY..lets fly to yemen and deliver medicine etc etc. But in truth it is very difficult to get that done through the "red" tape.

[Eomer]

I don't want to get into how to solve the problems there, cause that's a whole ugly argument. However, there is a huge problem with having their agents use Canadian cover: it endangers out own fucking citizens. Suddenly a tourist/observer in the west bank saying he is Canadian may, instead of getting a smile and a finger pointed in the direction he is asking, he may just get thrown into the back of a car, driven to a camp, and interrogated because they think he is really Israeli.

It's bullshit, they have no right to be assuming our identity without our permission, and they ESPECIALLY should not be counterfeiting our fucking passports. I and the vast majority of Canadians want nothing to do with that little hellhole on Earth, pulling our names into it without our permission is despicable, especially considering what they do with the information they acquire.

The most recent one, they used the info to pinpoint a hamas leader's house, dropped a bomb on it, and killed 14 other people nearby (9 of which were children). Do you want your fucking nationality associated with that?

[Qaediin]

I understand what your saying, but understand this they wouldnt get there and get whatever they needed done without assuming someone elses ID/passport what have you. The point is they have to get in there using someones identity/nationality, is it approved by the other countries/shrug dont know. Trust me eomer Mr. Uzibulletwithyournameonit isnt going to stop and assume jack, they going into an area where they can do the most damage and not going to yell hey if your from such and such country get out cause im coming in blazing, nor would they stop and ask if your from such and such country before they popped you. Minute you step off a boat/airplane in another country you are being profiled by the natives there, white person/suit/carrying brief case=american/german/canadian/australian/UK etc.

[Eomer]

Actually Qaediin, the majority of Canadians who travel generally have some sort of marking on themselves at all times, displaying they are Canadian. Most travel agencies/experience travelers strongly recommend it, because you get treated a lot better if you do. Otherwse a white/english speaking person is assumed to be American, and to be honest there are a lot of places less than friendly to them.

My friend was travelling throughout southeast asia a year or two ago, and one day on a bus came across another Canadian, as evidenced by the patch he had sown onto his backpack. After talking to the guy for about five minutes, it readily became apparent this guy was full of shit. My buddy asked him if he really was Canadian, and the guy laughed and admitted no, he was actually American, but that he found people were way more friendly when they thought he was Canadian.

[Rezz]

A lot of places? I assumed just about everyone in the world hated us americans =/ What have we been doing so wrong that somebody actually likes us?!

Sadly, it's true though. A couple friends of mine got stopped for speeding or something in cancun a few years back. The guy that was driving was shit faced and obviously not capable of driving safely, while my friends were in the back seat. None of em was very coherant, but the driver was canadian and when asked for his passport and license the officer didn't say shit. When my friends gave the officer their american passports, they ended up getting searched and a warning. Go America!

[Torrid]

Everyone else hates us because we're preventing them from doing what they want: destroy each other :P

[Exitilus]

Torrid : I'm rather certain that if there was no oil involved senor Bush would more than happily allow the various factions in the middle east blow themselves from the stone age into the gravel age.

-Exit

[Qaediin]

Which is what the israelis did. Didnt say it never worked, saying that you are profiled from the moment you step off into another country, the locals profile you and put you in a box as one of those people they hate. I can tell ya without a doubt that if someone is putting a gun to me or my family's head im going to sing the Canadian national song and Dance a jig:D. Back to the arguement, since you know they were fake canadians, dont you think the palestinians know it also and wouldnt hold it against the Canuckies?

[Rezz]

Canadians are masters of disguise Q, I thought you knew that =/

On a side note, since they knew that the israeli are fond of using Canada as their fake nationality when spying, every true canadian who comes in will at least be thoroughly interrogated just to see if it's another israeli. I don't think the Palestines have anything against Canada, but when national security is at stake, you don't take chances with the honor system. I think I have to agree with Homer here, that's just plain fucked up. Using Canada to get treated better at a resort and using it to sneak in and kill people are two entirely different things heh. I see what your saying Q, but even though I seriously doubt the palestines will ever take action against Canada, anyone with a canadian passport is in for some serious hassle at the least if they visit palestinian controlled areas.

[Lothbah]

Kind of off topic, but the real question is this...
http://www.bangedup.com/archives/01kingkongty56.jpg


trying to lighten a heavy thread, dont h8te or flame~
Blowth

[Eomer]

Never seen that before, and that's actually kind of funny.

[Tilea]

My whole point in this post wasn't whether or not what Cretien said was true, or even semi true. My point is that, if you represent an entire nation, you better act like it and think things through before you spew them out of half-not-even-working mouth. Cretien doesn't do this. He blabs crap left and right without realizing that a lot of people will assume the entrie country feels the same way he does.

It's not the wealth of the US that lead to the attacks, it's deranged, psychotics that don't know how to do ANYTHING else but kill and terrorize that lead to the attacks. What do you think is going to happen? Do you think that if the US complies with whatever "demands" these guys have, that they'll just stop attacking the US at home and over seas, and start sending happy christmas cards to them instead? Think again, they'll just find another convenient excuse to do the only thing they know how to do.

It's not like terrorists have a high paying job to fall back on. It's not like all those different fighters in the Afghanistan tribes are carrying around masters degrees in their back pockets. These guys fight, kill, and use terrorist activities as their job. It's what they do. It's what they've always done, and it's all they'll EVER do, period. For them, no fighting and no killing means no job and no income. The western worlds wealth has nothing to do with it at all.

[Tilea]

oh yeah, almost forgot. Eomer, those comments weren't made in July, they were made on Tuesday night, September 10th, 2002.

"OTTAWA - Prime Minister Jean Chrétien told CBC-TV in an interview Tuesday night that the The West must accept some responsibility for the terror attacks of last September."

That's from the Wednesday, September 11th 2002 news.

[Eomer]

Hmm, my newspaper (The Edmonton Journal) in a story about the reaction to those comments stated that they were originally made in an interview in July. I guess they were mistaken.

However Tilea, most Canadians DO agree with Chretien. There was a pole in which 80% of Canadians agreed that the US bears some responsibility for the attacks, due to past and present foreign policy and their actions in the Middle East. In a way, Chretien WAS speaking for most Canadians.

Now, before anyone gets all upset, this is not to say that Canadians feel the attacks are justified, or that it's the victim's fault. Far from it, so please don't get upset. I know this is a touchy subject :(

[Tilea]

Well it's entirely possible that he said something blitheringly stupid in July, and then again this month. I wouldn't put it passed him he's very consistantly incompetant.

Saying the US is responsible for the sept 11th attacks is really lame. For comparison, back in the 30's, France and I think Britain began suing Germany, to force them to pay compensation for the damages caused during world war 1. Shortly after Germany began making these payments, Hitler rose to power and started world war 2. Is it the fault of France and Britain that Hitler attacked the rest of Europe, because of their "foreign polcies" seeking this compensation? No... it's Hitlers fault, and that of the Nazi party, because they were a bunch of power crazed insane men. How is the al queda any different than the Nazi's were? How is the US any more responsible for the aggression of the terrorists than Europe was for Germany's? None.

And as much as I love Canada, I really hate listening to Canadians trash talking the US, or saying they should take some of the blame for it. I don't think most Canadians have any idea how much of what we have, is thanks to the US.

[Kaneis]

Originally posted by Eomer
However Tilea, most Canadians DO agree with Chretien. There was a pole in which 80% of Canadians agreed that the US bears some responsibility for the attacks, due to past and present foreign policy and their actions in the Middle East. In a way, Chretien WAS speaking for most Canadians.


If this is the case, then why in the fuck are there Canadians allied with US forces in that area of the world?

Wouldn't they be sitting back letting us fight our own fight since it was our fault for being a "wealthy country and that's responsible for being wealthy which ensued dickheads to hijack planes and kill innocent people"?


Somehow I think their motives for the attacks are a little more involved that the shallow thought that it is because we are a wealthy nation. To me, that's absurd. And even if this is the case, does that justify hijacking planes and killing thousands of innocent people? Blatent and open attacks of this nature WILL cause the US to flex their millitary muscle and completely and utter eradicate the threat. Of course, then we are again branded as "world bullies" and it breeds more hatred with more of these third world countries. But in this case, it has been alot easier to flex that might since Americans have been given a reason to feel threaten and all the fair weather patriots show their colors. Now we have the support and the suffering that will ensue will be supported, as a whole, by most of the US citizens. And, in the end, we'll still look like the dickhead, strong-arm tactic nation we have always been viewed as. Not much gained other than someone starting a war they can't finish.

edit: (sp)

[Rezz]

/shrug you don't have to believe propaganda to fight for a cause Kane! Believe it or not, a lot of people don't want America being their watchdog. In a sense we, America, kind of are bullies. Right or wrong, we are infringing on the freedoms of other people and people get a tad upset at that. You can say "well, we freed blah blah country from communist rule" and that's great on tabloids. But what if the people we freed weren't all that happy with the change in government? Sure, the kid in the streets the newsmen go after that's waving the american flag will get front page billing, but the thousands who aren't all that pleased we came and "helped" them 99/100 times won't even get mentioned.

Am I saying that the terrorists were right in attacking us? No, but perhaps in their minds they were. But believe it or not, money isn't all that shallow of a reason, especially when you believe that the US is the reason why your children have to steal to eat. I'm not saying that it justifies their actions, but seriously Kane, money makes the world go 'round. Those who have it flaunt it, those who don't have it, want it.

/shrug my personal belief is that the "attack" sucked, and those responsible should pay for it. But that doesn't change the fact that with all the global policing we do, with all the money we are throwing around at various organizations and screwing with the dictators/religious leaders of some countries, how can we not expect reprecussions of that kind? It's almost infantile to assume that everyone in the world is hunky-dory with how we handle our international affairs, including the monetary ones. Can't get pissed at the prime minister, because he's just being honest. Do we have to like what he has to say? Nope, but you can't deny the validity of it.

[Eomer]

Kaneis, why don't you try reading my whole post before mashing your paw on the "reply" button.

There is a difference between saying that America's wealth and foreign policy could have been a contributing factor to the attack and saying that they WERE the reason for it.

And again, I nor anyone else in their right mind think's it is America's fault.

Here let me quote myself:
Now, before anyone gets all upset, this is not to say that Canadians feel the attacks are justified, or that it's the victim's fault.

If you can't even read a three paragraph post on an internet message board, I think that your views on world politics instantly become moot.

Canada was perfectly happy to send soldiers over to help in that war, even though we could barely spare them (our military is in shambles and on the verge of collapse), because that's what allies do. Despite the often loud animosity between our two countries, there is no question that we are basically the closest Allies in the Western world, from a political, military, and economic standpoint.

And again, let me be clear Kaneis: this is a touchy subject, one that people get upset about. The last thing that is needed is for people to read half a post then shoot one of their own off the cuff.

[Lothbah]

Dead link :\

[Qaediin]

Rezz, its true your not going to keep everyone happy no matter what the US is/would/could do in any international policy, someone(s) is/are going to be pissed. You cant let that dictate what you do, you go with what works and stick to it and make adjustments as you go, nothing is perfect(this isnt a movie where bingo one thing goes wrong and whamo..everything is A OK!!). Do i agree with Bush on his foreign policy? hell no, it sucks at best. But here is a news flash, Mr. Terrorist didnt wake up one morning and say today and forever i hate Americans/Canadians/japanese/germans etc etc. But also there is fanatics in every country(yes even canada:p ). Look at that dumbass jerry falwell blaming America because we harbor Homosexuals, adulterers, pagans and whatever he said..umm yeah ok slapnuts. Im sure other countries have those same things in their countries but you dont see airplanes flying into their buildings~. I myself would like for everyone to get along, killing each other doesnt solve anything, that goes for every side.

[Kaneis]

I read your entire post, Eomer, and my post came off as kinda pissy. No, I don't think you feel that way about the whole situation and I overdid it a bit.

As for the Canadian/US alliance, you are correct. We do have one of the strongest alliances. Me personally, I had an absolute blast with the Canadian troops I worked with while deployed to that side of the world.

As for your comment, Rezz, I think you answered your own question. I don't think it's money issue but more of the fact that the US sticks their nose where it doesn't belong. That is what makes us the bullies. Prime example was the whole Bosnia/Yugoslavia deal. We can't try and control/fight someone else's holy war. We need to mind our own fucking business every now and then. Until that time, we will be looked at that way, and there will be the hatred toward us. IMO it's not as much of an issue that we are a wealthy nation but more of the "peace-keeper" front we try to portrait. Honestly, what more were the attacks on the US other than to slap us in the face and show us were aren't all powerful?

[Eomer]

You:


Wouldn't they be sitting back letting us fight our own fight since it was our fault for being a "wealthy country and that's responsible for being wealthy which ensued dickheads to hijack planes and kill innocent people"?


Somehow I think their motives for the attacks are a little more involved that the shallow thought that it is because we are a wealthy nation.


And even if this is the case, does that justify hijacking planes and killing thousands of innocent people?

Me, post previous to yours (quoting myself slightly out of context for brevity):


the US bears some responsibility for the attacks, due to past and present foreign policy and their actions in the Middle East


this is not to say that .....the attacks are justified, or that it's the victim's fault.

To me it seems an awful lot like you didn't really read my post. But whatever!

[Mitsy]

Long, bare with me.


I don't really see us as bullies of the world but more as parents. If anyone here has kids you know how this goes. Two kids doing something wrong you step in and make them both do something they hate. Sure they don't like it or understand it. But later they will realize it is for their own good. Kinda like Bosnia. Maybe it's none of our business. But here is an anology for ya. If you see two people fighting in the street and you know you could take them both easily but you dont break it up you just let them kill each other. What kind of person does that make you? Sure if you stepped in and broke up the fight both sides would be ticked off at you. But it was for their own good they just couldn't see it. IMO if we have the power to stop two countries from fighting then by all means we should. I wish someone would have done the same for us back in the civil war. Think how many lives that would have saved.

As for other countries not liking us for coming in and changing things I disagree. We remove the dictator and allow the people of the said country to vote on what they want. Now if they really wanted a dictator don't you think they would vote one back in? I mean sure you will see some brainwashed idiot who wants to work for next to nothing and have no say in the laws of his land or no say in how to live his own life. I bet you 99% of the women in Afghanastan(sp?) are pretty damn happy right now. Unless you think they like being stuck inside all day and only get to go out for food wearing 50 pounds of cloth. Oh and lets not forget the thousands forced to quit their jobs as nurses, bakers etc etc because they aren't allowed to work. Oh yea great country i'm on the next flight over.

Seriously though most of these people are uneducated and aren't able to see through the bullshit their goverment feeds them as truth. Here we are smart enough to smell it coming. Our goverment tries to spin stories to us as well. But we have the freedom to chose if we believe them and have the right to challange the goverment if we think they are wrong. And to these uneducated people who think thats how life is supposed to be. It's our job and everyone who has the power to do so to allow these people the choice to live how they want. It's back to the parenting thing. If they can't see what is best for them it's up to the rest of the world to show them and teach them.

I'm sure some of you are asking "why should we". Because if you where in some country where you had no rights. No say in how you live. Wouldn't you want someone to help you. And mostly we should do it because we are all humans. We are all equal. No race, creed, color, religion, nationality should be treated as less then human. Think of all the things that wouldn't have changed if someone didn't step in and say "hey thats not right".

The problem we have right now is the type of countries we are dealing with. There is no other way to stop their dictators from oppressing their people and give their people rights or stop attacking others without force. You can't simply threaten or even try to deter a country where it has a twisted version Islamic beliefs that it's ok to do a suicide bombing. Or what's worse your family will get paid if you do(currently Saudia Arabia pays the families of palastian suicide bombers). The leaders or these countries are not rational people and they don't care what happens to their people. Hell Saddam gassed his own people to test out his weapons. I mean WTF.

Like Tilea said terrorism pays. Just like drug dealers. You think they sell crack of the street because its a sweet job with great hours or because they don't know anything else?

I just hope the civilized and educated countries around the world would just start trying to make other countries a better place as well. It's like a neighborhood. Sure your house can look very clean and well trimmed but if your neighbors smell like shit and have 40 broken cars in their yard you house isn't gonna amount to anything but a nice house in a shitty neighborhood. But we can't stop with just the middle east either. I'm not saying we need to use force on everyone but we sure as hell need to pressure some changes. Hell look at nigeria. They stoned a woman to death for having a child out of wedlock. WTF !!!!! Yet we are supposed to have a Miss World competion there. How can you have a competion celebrating women in a country without woman's rights? Big thumbs us to those coutries where the women are boycotting it. They all need to. But how can we have things change when we have allies like China where the shoot Iodine in the back of the heads of babies they dont want or the some 900,000 slaves. Or where the UN has Lybia's spokeman as the chairman for Human Rights?!?!?

So i'm totally off the original topic and ranting, but I hope you understand what i'm saying. We might be in different countries but we are all on the same planet.


Mitsy

[Karendra]

parents? lol no thx!
oh and parents dont give satelite photos to kids knowing they will use the targeting info in it gas (happened in ireaq iran war) against the other country peoples.

[Grimthorn]

It's times like this that make me want to throw my hands up and say "Fine, kill yourselves. I no longer give a shit. I'll be over here with my DVD player and personal computers entertaining myself while you bleed to death."

Part of me wants to say "If you want to kill yourselves, then that's your right.. I won't stand in your way." but the other part agrees with the sentiment "We're the strongest country on the planet and it is in our best interests to maintain peace around the world because we're the only ones who CAN." Who's right? I dunno. But Cretien's nonsense about the west being "too wealthy" is moronic. Wealthy countries (and people) develop the patterns of behavior that made them that way, hence, they tend to get wealthier. Poor countries tend to cultivate the behaviors that made them poor to begin with, thus making them poorer. If what you're doing isn't working, then perhaps it's YOU that should change, and not the rest of the world that isn't in your situation.

I'm sick of hearing how the world's poor are somehow the US's responsibility. Pardon us for getting it right. (I didn't say perfect, but since there are so many folks around the world who would trade places with us in an instant, we must be doing SOMETHING right.)

-Grim

[Eomer]

Sorry Mitsy, but it's not like the US goes into every country where people are oppressed by a dictatorship and installs a happy new government that allows free elections.

Want a great example right now? Pakistan. Sure maybe Musharaff (or however you spell it) took power in a bloodless coup, and he doesn't have a rep of killing his own people, but the fact remains that the US is happily supporting (and funding) a dictator once again, simply because it is convenient.

Ever heard of Pinochet? That was American doing too.

The parent analogy simply doesn't work for one reason: parents do something (generally) in the best interest of their children, whether they know it or not. The US does things in the best interest of itself (which isn't neccessarily a bad thing, that's how all countries operate really).

[Illegal]

Originally posted by Tilea
It's not the wealth of the US that lead to the attacks, it's deranged, psychotics that don't know how to do ANYTHING else but kill and terrorize ...

As long as the western world's political powers continue to live in this "our way is the best way, because we're superior and more powerful, and we will not hesitate to impose it upon others using much more brutal and costly tactics than the ones employed by these cowards, but its ok since CNN will cover it as the work of heroes bringing light into darkness." bubble it has been in over the past few centuries, unafraid to flex its muscles in search of financial and cultural dominance, extremist groups such as the ones responsible for this attack will continue to believe that there is no other way to affect change to their own homeland (wherever that may be) than resorting to terrorism. Are they right for thinking that? No, they're not. No more right than everyone else for thinking that stability can only happen when the entire world follow in the footsteps of the west (north america + western europe)

I do not believe Cretien to be out of line when he says all of the west (notice he very strongly emphasized that he was NOT pinpointing the US) has some blame to share for 9-11. As far as I know his job is to do what he believes to be in the nation's best interest. It's easy to see how that may not always directly reflect the will of the people. And I do believe it to be in the people's best interest to at least begin to realize that our culture very often steps on others for no other reason than maintaining the status quo. Am I saying western culture is bad? I don't believe in good and bad: as sentient beings we're free to make whatever decisions we wish. The only truly regrettable thing in life is the premature loss of it, it troubles me greatly that we cannot find a better way to resolve differences. And for THAT, I blame all of humanity through all of time, equally.

[Tryss]

Ok, for you people that agree that he is right, that the 'West' is to blame ( or whatever word you want to put in here ) for 9/11, what should the west have DONE or what should it DO?

We go into a country to try and help out, keep peace or whatever, and we get railed on for being the World's police. If we DON'T go over and help out we get branded as selfish, wealthy pricks who don't care about anyone but ourselves. We cannot appease them. Ever.

So, World Police or selfish, inhumane people. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I would prefer to be the World's police. At least we can protect SOME people from the cruelty of others. What the Taliban was imposing on women was inhumane and should never be allowed in any country. They weren't even allowed to see doctors according to an article I read. Either way, we lose.

[Eomer]

What the Taliban was imposing on women was inhumane and should never be allowed in any country. They weren't even allowed to see doctors according to an article I read.

Gonna play the devil's advocate here: how is that any different than a lot of rules of Mormon's, Jehovah's witnesses, Hudderites, Ahmish, basically any other conservative religion/people? It's all relative. From our "enlightened" Western viewpoint, it's something from the dark ages. But who are we go judge other cultures? They think we are freaks of nature with how it's perfectly acceptable for a woman to walk around showing off her nipples through her shirt. It's called Ethnocentrism.

However, let me make it clear that I agree with you, the way they treated woman in Afghanistan is deplorable. But guess what? The majority of Muslim nations are not very different. Guess we should bomb them too!

And by the way, the doctor thing was sort of a technicality: women cannot be seen by another male face to face, unless that male is a close relative, child, or husband. Also, women are forbidden to hold a job or attend school, so there are no women doctors (although there were before the Taliban took control). So basically it was sort of a really bad catch-22. I might be wrong in some of the details, but that was my understanding.


Ok, for you people that agree that he is right, that the 'West' is to blame ( or whatever word you want to put in here ) for 9/11

Do I have to state this again? PLEASE READ POSTS THOROUGHLY AND DON'T PUT WORDS IN OTHER'S MOUTHS. No one here has said that America or the West are 100% all the way guilty for causing the attacks, nor did Chretien. The point was that perhaps past/current policy and the wealth disparity could have contributed to the motivation of the attacks.

[Tryss]

Do I have to state this again? PLEASE READ POSTS THOROUGHLY AND DON'T PUT WORDS IN OTHER'S MOUTHS.

THAT IS WHY I SAID PUT IN WHATEVER WORD YOU WANTED. Contributed to, whatever, Eomer.

My question to you: WHAT SHOULD WE HAVE DONE???

If you think we are 'partially' to blame ( OR WHATEVER YOU CALL IT ), what should we have DONE? You CANNOT say we are 'partially' to blame ( OR WHATEVER YOU WANT YOU CALL IT ) and then not give a reason WHY. WHY is being more weathly than they are even a MOTIVATION to bomb the hell out of us? If there was a motivation for them to attack us, then there should have been something we could have done to motivate them NOT to attack us. If that did exist, then sure, we are partly to blame. If that doesn't exist, then we hold no responsibility at all. None.

We try to help and get told to stay the hell out of their business. We don't help, they ask where in the hell is the West with all their money? Keeping it to ourselves. Either way, we LOSE.


And by the way, the doctor thing was sort of a technicality: women cannot be seen by another male face to face, unless that male is a close relative, child, or husband. Also, women are forbidden to hold a job or attend school, so there are no women doctors (although there were before the Taliban took control). So basically it was sort of a really bad catch-22.

A really bad catch-22? Ok...Women were dying because they couldn't see a doctor. Yeah, that's a pretty bad catch-22.


Gonna play the devil's advocate here: how is that any different than a lot of rules of Mormon's, Jehovah's witnesses, Hudderites, Ahmish, basically any other conservativereligion/people?

If any of these religions have done anything like what the Taliban did, then it was inhumane as well. Just because 5 groups of people do it, doesn't make it ok.

[Rezz]

I like the cocanut thing, that's a very workable plan.

Hah, the only people's fault for the attack are the wads who hijacked the planes. However, they wouldn't have even thought of attacking the US if it wasn't for our position in the world, both economic and militarily. So in a round about way, some responsibility has to fall to the western nations, because it's pretty much common sense to expect if you have all the money in the world and other people have less, they aren't going to be all that happy with you. Call it greed, envy, jeolousy, insanity.. whatever, the fact that the US is the richest and most powerful draws those that have a beef with the US to it in droves.

And on the topic of afghanistan... I wonder how many totally uninvolved afghans died, really. Doesn't seem all that different from flying a plane into a building. They attacked us because of our way of life, and people are trying to justify our attack on Afghanistan as freeing them from theirs. They don't agree with our way of life, we don't agree with theirs. But we invaded them, and that's where I personally draw the line. I have always believed the jargon about america standing for freedom, kinda kills that image when we actively go about taking that freedom away from other people. Especially when we lack any real justification other than "well, The Taliban didn't hand us Osama" or "Saddam is a bad bad man!" Police nothing, we are straight up being the aggressor now. And I put the blame squarely on our president. I sincerely hope his term ends without any more dipshit actions and we come to our collective senses and not keep him around for a second. Feel free to flame me, this is all just an opinion =)

edit- woops, kinda forgot to mention, that the al-queda were in afghanistan, and that was our magic justification for attacking the country and freeing it from taliban rule. So that makes our reasoning for invading afghanistan even more flimsy =/

[Illegal]

I've found that I often choose not to focus on these specific events of late, the way I see it it's impossible to isolate them from the rest of our history and treat them separately, thats just not how the world works. And btw, I know the title definitely does NOT relate (if anyone actually gets the cheesy, geekish reference to the TV show), but the message it conveys is equally important to all sides of this conflict.



Originally posted by Tryss
If any of these religions have done anything like what the Taliban did, then it was inhumane as well. Just because 5 groups of people do it, doesn't make it ok.

One day, long ago, (well not so long I suppose) a bunch of people from the top economically and culturally thriving countries in the world came together and talked.
"ok, so like, we live sort of the same way. Things are pretty comparable in our countries, and we're doing pretty well for ourselves. Let's make a standard as to how life should be everywhere in the world."

And so they created an idea of how the world should be. Now in principle that idea is pretty good. All people have an equal right to live, etc etc. Great, now all that was left, was to make the rest of the world "see the light". Now how did they go about doing this? They took their military and econimic strength, marched it into someone else's lawn, and screamed off the top of their lungs "ALL HAIL GOD, THIS IS HOW THE WORLD SHOULD BE BECAUSE WE DECIDED SO." Unfortunately, when one hundred and twenty generations of a people exist with certain beliefs that may differ from our own, marching into their land and telling them they better change OR ELSE, doesn't really work. Surprised? You shouldn't be. How did we react when people started saying that communism was the way to go? (ok its not a perfect example, but you get the idea)

Now, it's only natural to want to impose our views on others, since this is the way we live our life, and most of us seem to rather like it. When we see others in unnecessary pain or suffering, we believe we have a duty to teach them there is a better way of living (i use the terms "unnecessary" and "better" very loosely, this is from the point of view of our society). HOWEVER, when we decide the way we're gonna do that is by forcefully taking away their right to live their life as they see fit, and forcefully imposing OUR beliefs onto their society, we are, in effect, oppressing them. As has been our experience in the past half millennia or so of well documented history, oppressed peoples seldom sit idly by. The simple fact that they are forced to change is enough to rally them together and fill their minds with hatred. "How dare you come into our house and tell us how to live our lives?" Is it any wonder that weak-minded individuals will eventually come together under this collective frenzy and drive planes full of people into crowded buildings to try and get some attention? I think not.

[Tryss]

Ok, so we oppressed the Taliban and they were oppressing the Afghan people, hence the Northern Alliance was formed.

So what is/was their way of life? How about before the Taliban took over? Did the Taliban take away the right of the people to live they way they wanted? Who oppressed who first? heh

[Eomer]

Okay Tryss, let me do what you said:

The West's economic and political policies contributed to the attacks of Sept. 11

The West's economic and political policies are to blame for the attacks of Sept. 11

Not sure about you, but those two sentences come across as very very different. Regardless of what you said in the brackets, your sentence specifically said "blame", in the context that someone had made the statement that the West was 100% responsible for the attacks. No one ever said that, at least not here.


If you think we are 'partially' to blame ( OR WHATEVER YOU CALL IT ), what should we have DONE? You CANNOT say we are 'partially' to blame ( OR WHATEVER YOU WANT YOU CALL IT ) and then not give a reason WHY

Perhaps the West, and the US specifically need to rethink foreign policy? Especially in the Middle East? One example would be the US' support for the state of Israel, both monetarily, politically, and militarily. Israel constantly commits acts which result in the deaths of just as many (and actually, it's a lot more, like 10 times more) deaths of innocents, compared to what the Palestinians do. However because they are a government, it's somehow legitimate. And the US continues to feed them more bombs and money, while turning a blind eye.

Let me put it this way: if someone were to kill my cousin, I would probably want to return the favor to the person who did it (Israel). However, if I were to find out that the person who killed my cousin was given (not sold) that gun, and a whole lot of other guns, by someone else (US), I would probably be pretty angry, and want some sort of revenge.

So right there is one reason for basically every Middle Eastern country to be pretty annoyed with the US. I am not saying that the Palestinian cause is the just one, or Israel. I think both are wrong, and personally wouldn't mind if that whole area just vanished one day. It would solve a lot of problems.


WHY is being more weathly than they are even a MOTIVATION to bomb the hell out of us?

Oh come on you aren't that naive are you? Do you think that the jackass that just keyed a brand new BMW is going to do it to the '75 Chevette parked beside it? Jealousy is an ugly thing. Afghanistan is one of the most desperately poor nations in the world, they look at the US and see what they want, and want someone to blame for their lot.


then there should have been something we could have done to motivate them NOT to attack us. If that did exist, then sure, we are partly to blame.

There are a large number of things that could have been done, some of which I mentioned above. Hell, all of the sudden it's a War on Terrorism now that the US has been attacked. Osama had been operating for 10 or 20 years before this, but the US never really seriously went after him, the view was that he was someone else' problem.


We try to help and get told to stay the hell out of their business. We don't help, they ask where in the hell is the West with all their money? Keeping it to ourselves. Either way, we LOSE.

It's pretty rare that the biggest, baddest, richest, most powerful person is universally liked. Life is tough at the top I guess.


A really bad catch-22? Ok...Women were dying because they couldn't see a doctor. Yeah, that's a pretty bad catch-22.

By saying it was a bad catch-22, I meant the logic behind why women can't see doctors. There is no law that says "Thou bitches may not be examined by a doctor". Don't try to make it look like I think it's no biggy that women were treated the way they were. I saw a video on CBC of a women and her daughter being shot in the head on a street in Khandahar because they had a little bit of lipstick on underneath their burka's. They were just left in the street as examples. That will probably stay in my head for the rest of my life.


If any of these religions have done anything like what the Taliban did, then it was inhumane as well. Just because 5 groups of people do it, doesn't make it ok.

You missed my points completely. First of all, I said I was playing the devil's advocate: basically saying the opposite of what you want to hear to make a point. I never meant to imply what they were doing was okay. Again, don't put words in my mouth. You can't look at other cultures/religions/belief systems and directly compare them to your own. You are automatically biased, since you are doing it through the lens of your own beliefs.

Obviously, the way the women in Afghanistan were treated was horrendous. My point wasn't that the other religions were as bad as the Taliban.

Oh, and btw, have you heard of the Crusades? That was encouraged by the fucking Vatican. What they did was way worse than any crimes the Taliban committed. There is your example.

[Tryss]

The point is, Eomer, if we help any of them, the others hate us. If we don't help any of them, they all hate us.

Either way we are motivating them to attack us. As it stands, in my opinion, there is nothing we can do to eliminate all factors of motivation. So to say we are partly responsible for the attacks, is wrong. We are not responsible because no matter what we do, we piss someone off which in turns motivates them to attack us.

Let's say the only motivation to attack us is because of our wealth, what can we do? Be poor? I really don't see what we can do to appease the world. Help us, don't help us. Heh. I don't see an answer and I don't think there is one. Otherwise the whole Israel, Palestine conflict would have been resolved. One of the things they are fighting over is holy land and neither will give it up.

[Karendra]

well tryss maybe it would be a good start to stop building up people/organisations just because at the current point are against your "enemy". thats what happened with saddam and bin ladan they got build up cus they were against Iran or russia that was all what was needed to know.
now you have build up the northern aliance and look the shit they did/do (ie massexecution of PoW etc).
that kind of SHORT sighted politic is what gets anyone who does it a fair shair of enemys.

[Tryss]

I can honestly say I am glad I don't have to make these decisions. I have no clue what is the right answer and if there isn't a 'right' answer, what is the 'best' answer. I think often the people that have to make these decisions are always faced with choosing between two evils. I have my own opinion on what is 'right' but then someone can make a good argument for another choice but it also has its downsides.

I'll be the last one to ever run for a political office.

[Eomer]

I agree with you, there is no simple solutions, and I am no more qualified to suggest one than you.

I don't like your logic though Tryss.


Either way we are motivating them to attack us. As it stands, in my opinion, there is nothing we can do to eliminate all factors of motivation. So to say we are partly responsible for the attacks, is wrong. We are not responsible because no matter what we do, we piss someone off which in turns motivates them to attack us.

I don't know, that logic just seems fucked to me. I can't explain why really, am tired. But just because you have to make a really tough decision, doesn't mean that you can say "Well, this was a real fucking doozy, so we aren't responsible for what happens alrighty?" There are things that can be done to placate people, or things that you don't do in order to not piss them off. The fact of the matter is that the US has done some pretty ugly things in other parts of the world, often with good intentions for the people they are doing it to. You can't shuck the past simply because it was a tough call.

I am really curious to see what Pakistan is gonna be like in 10 years. Mushareff or however you spell it has been making changes to the country's constitution to consolidate power. And he happens to have nukes. But I guess since he is the US's buddy, thats cool.

[Tryss]

I see where you are coming from and I don't blame you, and maybe I am wrong. In a way it sounds like I trying to shrug off all repsonsibility but my main point is, it's a lose lose situation. So in that respect, people are always going to hate us. Palestine today, Pakistan in 10 years. It's like we have to disarm a bomb all the time and can't really try for long term fixes because there is a crisis today.

Perhaps there is something the West can do to make peace between ourselves and other countries. Helping them out isn't it and not helping them out isn't it. We decide to side with Israel, the arab nations hate us. We side with Palestine and Israel hates us. We turn our backs on both and say figure it out yourself, they all hate us.

[Rajakhan]

Do you remember that part in T2 where the terminator and John Connor are working on the truck at some crazy guys ammo dump, and they see the two kids running around brandishing toy pistols while they play?
Don't remember the exact line, but it was something along the lines of "The urge to be cruel and kill is part of human nature."
S'true. Humans are generally violent, greedy, and jealous. Seems to me that the only solution for our non ending conflicts is for everyone to get all hippy and fall into some sort of brotherly love jig. Hell, even everyone respecting everyone else would be a miracle. Since that will never happen, (providing God himself doesn't come down and show us how to make peace) you have about 80 or so years to go out and do what good you can while grabbing a piece of the pie for yourself and the ones you love. Make them worthwhile! :D

Also,

"Well, this was a real fucking doozy, so we aren't responsible for what happens alrighty?"
is hilarious.

[Qaediin]

Its not just about countries fighting each other and killing each other. Example Yugoslavia, that was genocide, people werent fighting a civil war(few were) Slav troops were marching in in front of UN troops(sometimes) herding people like cattle and exterminating them. Most people were not fighting back, just being led to their slaughter. Still finding mass graves with skeletons and bullets holes to their backs or back of their heads. Women, children and old people. IMO if Iraq was given fly zones over the North and South, they would start exterminating the kurds and other miniorities eventually.

[Torrid]

Rajakhan, I believe the line you are refering to is "its in your nature to destroy yourselves."

[Eomer]

IMO if Iraq was given fly zones over the North and South, they would start exterminating the kurds and other miniorities eventually.

That may well be true, but don't for a minute think the US is enforcing those no fly zones only because they are worried about the Kurds. The US has in the past had prior knowledge of a genocide about to happen, and used their veto on the security council to prevent action being taken, because they were gunshy after losing troops in Bosnia. It was Rwanda, where 600-800K people were slaughtered.

Oh, anyone notice that the Israeli militant's bomb that blew up at a Palestinian school was like page 10 news? Cute.

[Tilea]

Hi... just a gentle reminder that this was intentionally intended to be a thread where everyone could merrily bash away at Cretien. :|

I think we need to stop saying the US was attacked because of it's wealth or it's military, etc. Never in my entire life will I aquire enough money to equal what someone like bill gates can spend on a house he'll only visit 4 times a year. I'll never know his luxury of thinking of money as a play thing, and never really having to work for another moment if I choose not to. Do you see me blowing up his car because of that? However if I was a freak like the typical terrorist is... I just might do that and use his wealth as a lame excuse to justify my need to kill and destroy.

Criminals who make their "trade" by killing innocent people are not rational beings, folks. Those people have a very, very real need to kill. They'll find what some people might consider a justifyable reason to do it, as long as they're not totally insane. But those reasons are never more than shallow excuses. When the excuse runs it's course, they'll usually find another one. Or they'll find a "cause" that can never be won, hence they'll never need to stop killing.

For example: Afghanistan aghain. That country has a lot of different tribes in it, that have never really lived in peace with eachother. But they united under the cause of toppling the Taliban. So when the Taliban is driven out, what do they do? They go right back to killing eachother again. Now those guys at least in -gerneral- aren't killing innocent civilians, which terrorists will do. How can you even try to rationalize their thinking?

The US started out as nothing but pilgrims and local indians with nothing, really. Everything they've gained for themselves, they did for themselves. Please, it's pointless to point a finger at their "greed" as a logical reasoning for the slaughter of 3000 innocent people.

[Rezz]

Canada sucks. Ok, your right, I feel better.

[Lothbah]

Conan is from Canada, we should go to Canada and filter who can be on TV because its in THEIR best interests not to publicize people like Conan. We should also enforce a new government change in Canada because the Socialized medicine and other government programs are archaich and silly, and the Canadian people secretly dont like paying those taxes for free medicine either. Oh and in some Canadian cities it is acceptable for a woman to walk around topless. This subversive and generally 'un-american' culture is just begging for change, and its America's resposibility to bring it about.




Blowth

(the 'In the year 2000 skits rocked~')

[Eomer]

That's prolly the best post in this whole thread. Nice work :)

[TeknoKrat]

Preach on Eomer!

[Eomer]

<----opinionated jackass!

[Tilea]

Speaking of President Bush, I read he's now already looking for congress permisson for use of force against Iraq, even though he just barely finished asking the UN to get Iraq to disarm, and the whole reallowing weapons inspectors thing.

I also read Britain is ready to start sending troops to Kuwait as early as within 2 weeks. hmm? And yes I believe EVERYTHING I read, it's all true!

[Eomer]

Yea, Bush is asking for Congressional approval, but that doesn't mean he is going to attack as soon as he gets it. He is also seeking to station B-2 bombers in Diego Garcia (I think that's the name, anyway), to allow for more effective blanket bombing!

Anyone read about Germany's Justice Minister comparing Bush's current policy of focusing attention of his population outwards to Hitler in the 30's? That was a real smooth fucking move, lol.

[Tilea]

Hitler believed that his "Aryan (spelling) race" had the right to expand their lands at the cost of any of the lesser races. That's why they tried to take over Europe, and that's why they even had plans made for the invasion of the US. I don't think Bush is anywhere near that extreme ;)

[Eomer]

Yea, I agree. I just found it amusing, because it's one hell of a thing to say. The stupid woman wasn't aware there was a reporter in the room :).

What was the word for that policy of Hitler's, started with an "L". I can't remember anymore :/

[Tilea]

He liked to use the word Liquidate a lot. So if he ordered a neighbourhood of jewish people to be killed, they would "liquidate" the peopel, rather than calling it a massacre. You might be thinking of that.

This woman sounds like a clueless politician, there's probably room for her in Cretien's cabinet!

[Karendra]

while i dont agree with what she said you got reported wrong .
she said: bush is trying to get involved in foreign affairs/wars so he can distract of problems in his own land and that that was allready a good working methode since hitler.

[Lothbah]

Think the word you're looking for is 'Liberace'
"Ve vill create ze liberace movement und conquer ze Europe...ACHTUNG!" -Adolf Hitler to his friend Quincy, 1934



Blowth

[Eomer]

Yea Karen, that's basically what I meant. Sorry if I wasn't clear :)

I couldn't remember the exact quote so I badly paraphrased!

[Rezz]

Well, Hitler's rule was largely based on the economic state of Germany after ww1. Their money was worth more burned than it was for buying stuff (read: the heat generated was worth more than the value of the bills) He used the jews as a scapegoat, and while he was racist, he wouldn't have had the overwhelming support he did if it wasn't for him picking someone who wasn't at fault for the economic state of the country. Personally, I've been hearing a lot of comparisons between Bush and Hitler's policies on economics, that they are pretty good justification for war. (not the racism policies, just the monetary ones)

/shrug I don't like Bush, I think his constant pushing for war with Iraq is retarded and based entirely on the fact that there is oil fields in the country and he has yet to produce Bin Laden. Ie, Politics and Economics as the entire justification for his war. Iraq caved and let inspectors in, wtf is Bush thinking still pushing? Ah well, politics are the suck~

[Torrid]

Heh, gimmie a break. Iraq != world's largest supplier of oil. America would not go to shit if suddently we had no access to Iraqi oil. In fact, I wish oil WAS in short supply, so these fucking morons driving SUVs that don't drive offroad get fucked in the ass at the pump. If I had money, I'd be driving a hybrid car, because the grey matter in my cranium is utilized.

If you ask me, I think Bush knows somthing that he can't say.

[Mitsy]

If you wanna talk about who has economic interest. Lets look at the two biggest opposers of attacking Iraq.

#1 France. 2 Years after sanctions and trade embargo's where placed on Iraq by THE UN!! France said screw you all and proceeded with a 2 billion dollar oil trade agreement with Iraq. Its no wonder Iraq laughs at the UN resolutions when even the people applying them don't uphold to them. Now lets skip to present. A few days ago France was reported saying that if they go to war with Iraq for a regime change they want claim to some of Iraqs oil feilds!!!!!!

#2 Russia. Friday they reported that they wanted to ensure that if they go to war with Iraq. That the 8 Billion dollars owed them by Iraq would still get paid by UN / US.

I mean come on what is it gonna take? A mushroom cloud forming over a US city? The longer we wait the more likely it will happen. But to claim we only want war for economic reasons is ludicrous. The war will do more for Europe in the ways of Oil then America. Seems to me the so called "allies" are more in it for the money then we are.

Mitsy