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Serendib
10-03-2002, 07:08 AM
The Barber in Rivervale shaves everyone in the town who does not shave himself.

Who shaves the barber?
Rhedd
10-03-2002, 07:21 AM
I do
Serendib
10-03-2002, 07:29 AM
You always reply within 10 mins of me posting.. I am suspicious.

Do u maphack?
Khael
10-03-2002, 07:46 AM
He obviously shaves himself.
Lola
10-03-2002, 08:16 AM
Halflings shave?
Vinilaa
10-03-2002, 08:22 AM
The assumption is that the barber is shaved at all. If this assumption is false, then the answer is no one.
Zobb
10-03-2002, 10:55 AM
He doesnt shave, he keeps it for sexors.
Khael
10-03-2002, 11:19 AM
Well yeah, if he doesn't shave then of course the answer is noone (but who would ask that question then? :p).

If however we assume that he does shave, the fact given (that he shaves _EVERYONE_ that doesn't shave themselves), means that noone else could shave him if he didn't shave himself. Logic then brings us to the conclusion that he must shave himself.
Zappo
10-03-2002, 11:35 AM
the barbers apprentice shaves him
Vinilaa
10-03-2002, 12:08 PM
Except, Rhedd, if he only shaves those who do not shave themselves then he can't shave himself. He would be excluded from the set of things that do not shave themselves. Right?
Sirensa
10-03-2002, 12:13 PM
Obviously the barber is female and has no facial hair to shave.

(Rest of you sick tards can leave other shavings out of this!)
Vinilaa
10-03-2002, 12:21 PM
Yeah what Siren said. The barber doesn't shave, so is either female or wears a beard.
Serendib
10-03-2002, 12:40 PM
Its a paradox
Twong
10-03-2002, 01:43 PM
ima pair of docs

hoho~

hi all

:D

p.s. how can others be the sick tards sirensa when YOU brought up shaving "other" places? muh butt aint hairy!!!

hahahahaha

:D
Vinilaa
10-03-2002, 02:08 PM
par·a·dox n.
A seemingly contradictory statement that may nonetheless be true.

Just because it's a paradox doesn't mean that there is no truth condition.

I.E. the set of conditions that make this statement true are that the barber is female OR that the barber wears a beard or has no facial hair.
;)
Selenajra
10-03-2002, 04:55 PM
someone outside of rivervale could shave the barber.
BurnemWizfyre
10-03-2002, 10:29 PM
In the bible it says god can do anything. Can god make a rock so big that he himself can not move?
Tarissa
10-04-2002, 12:15 AM
This is definitely a paradox though. If you stick with the premise of it (no, saying the barber is a woman is a sneaky way to use language to defeat it!) then it's self contradictory. Which is generaly what a paradox is, though derived from plausible principles
Gryfalia
10-04-2002, 07:56 AM
Of course God can make a rock that God can't lift. And he can lift it. And he can't.

Being outside of time and space has wonderous advantages, one of which is being immune to Paradox.

But the barber paradox is...weak..;-)

Gryfalia
Inizen
10-04-2002, 08:46 AM
http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~wwu/riddles/intro.shtml

stuff with answers are more fun~
Vinilaa
10-04-2002, 09:21 AM
There is a barber in Rivervale
this barber only shaves people who do not shave themselves
therefore the barber does not shave himself

Ah but if he doesn't shave himself then he must be in the set of people whom he shaves which was shown earlier that he could not be a member of. ;)
Vinilaa
10-04-2002, 01:39 PM
Russell's Paradox

Russell's paradox is the most famous of the logical or set-theoretical paradoxes. The paradox arises within naive set theory by considering the set of all sets that are not members of themselves. Such a set appears to be a member of itself if and only if it is not a member of itself, hence the paradox.

Some sets, such as the set of all teacups, are not members of themselves. Other sets, such as the set of all non-teacups, are members of themselves. Call the set of all sets that are not members of themselves S. If S is a member of itself, then by definition it must not be a member of itself. Similarly, if S is not a member of itself, then by definition it must be a member of itself. Discovered by Bertrand Russell in 1901, the paradox has prompted much work in logic, set theory and the philosophy and foundations of mathematics.

;)
Serendib
10-07-2002, 10:49 AM
THE BARBOR GETS SHAVED
'HE' IS NOT FEMALE

Add those to the condition
It is a paradox :)
Vinilaa
10-07-2002, 11:19 AM
The barber in a certain village is a man who shaves all and only those men in the village who do not shave themselves.

The barber in a certain village is a man who shaves all and only those men in the village who do not shave themselves. Is he a man who shaves himself? If he is then he isn't, and if he isn't then he is. It follows that he is a man who both does and does not shave himself. This contradiction shows that the apparently innocent italicized description can apply to no one. Formally, the paradox resembles Russell's paradox of the class of all classes which are not members of themselves. The latter though is not so easy to dispose of, since it is generated by an assumption - that every predicate determines a class - which cannot simply be abandoned.

;)
Rhedd
10-07-2002, 11:49 AM
Damnit Vini you made my head hurt= \
Stitz
10-07-2002, 02:12 PM
This statement alone doesn't imply that the barber shaves (he could wear a beard) nor does it imply that he MUST shave himself.

You can always chose to miss-read a statement, but the

Who shaves the barber?
should really be enough so you know that the barber does indeed shave! Im sure you can miss-read just about anything, but if you read it the way its supposed to be read then its indeed a paradox! (gawd I make sense!)
Lilcix
10-07-2002, 03:00 PM
I'm going to agree with vini because she is sm4rtz.
Vinilaa
10-07-2002, 03:02 PM
I'm just trying to find a way out of the paradox the way Serendib presented it :p

I still think there is a way out of this paradox without resorting to giving the barber a sex change. :p

Although it's not possible to do that when it is stated in a stronger form. In that situation the solution is more final. The Barber paradox considers a town with a male barber who daily shaves every man who does not shave himself, and no one else. You have to conclude that such a town cannot exist. Therefore the barber paradox is resolved by showing that the so-called barber cannot exist.

:D
Maelikki
10-07-2002, 03:12 PM
who cares :/
people use electric shavers to be able to stay at comp while shaving nowadays you know
GainDRO
10-07-2002, 06:56 PM
Perhaps he waxes ;)
Serendib
10-08-2002, 07:35 AM
If Vinilaa is in a town in which she argues with everyone who does not argue with themselves, why is she a devil's advocate :P
Rhedd
10-08-2002, 08:17 AM
It's Vinilaa, she is the meanest shadow knight ever to exist... that is why my friend I LUB VINI =o
Vinilaa
10-08-2002, 08:17 AM
Not a devil's advocate, I just like to look at an issue from all sides before making a decision. ;)

My only question with regard to the barber's paradox as you wrote it, is as follows:


Originally posted by Serendib
The Barber in Rivervale shaves everyone in the town who does not shave himself.

Does that statement actually preclude the barber from shaving people who do shave themselves? Or do you have to say "The barber in Rivervale ONLY shaves everyone in the town who does not shave himself?"

I know it's only a semantic distinction, but I think it's relevant since the barber's paradox is a variation of Russell's paradox and is used to prove the same flaw in naive set theory. It seems that in order to do that, the barber's paradox would need to retain the same form. :cool:

Besides arguments about set theory and logic are much more interesting to me than polls about peanut butter :p
Vinilaa
10-08-2002, 08:18 AM
/hug Rhedd
Vidmer
10-08-2002, 10:11 AM
No way Rhedd, I am far meaner then Vini! She is however more annoying =D
Rhedd
10-08-2002, 10:31 AM
I think you have that wrong Vid= )
Vinilaa
10-08-2002, 11:09 AM
No one could be more annoying than you Vid. :p
Serendib
10-09-2002, 07:30 AM
He shaves exactly the people who do not shave themselves
Vinilaa
10-09-2002, 09:18 AM
Right. You have to make that distinction ;)
Illegal
10-09-2002, 06:38 PM
you can divide it into three groups:
A - people who do NOT shave themselves.
B - people who DO shave themselves.
C - people the barber shaves.

The question basically states "C contains all elements of A".
At no point does the question state "C contains ONLY A". So to fit in the barber, we say that C contains all elements of A AND one element of B (the barber).

Problem solved. The barber shaves all people who do not shave themselves, and STILL manages to get his shave.

Btw, he can't grow a beard either. You can easily infer that all people are shaved one way or the other. because anyone who doesnt shave himself, is shaved by the barber.

EDIT: of course, now that I actually noticed theres a second page to the thread, it'd be quite clear that the barber is an impossibility if you consider he can ONLY shave people who do not shave themselves. But as the problem was originally stated, my solution still stands, I think.
Vinilaa
10-10-2002, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by Illegal
you can divide it into three groups:
A - people who do NOT shave themselves.
B - people who DO shave themselves.
C - people the barber shaves.

The question basically states "C contains all elements of A".
At no point does the question state "C contains ONLY A". So to fit in the barber, we say that C contains all elements of A AND one element of B (the barber).

Exactly my point, Illegal :p

Except for the beard part (which I ws wrong about) as you clarified would still put him in the group of those who do not shave themselves. :D