Mass changes [Archive]

Eomer

10-08-2002, 10:46 PM

Wow, I actually agree with most of those changes. I always thought the new mod rod was too powerful, it essentially makes mana infinite on a raid. Although they will have to tune the hell out of the game to make up for the changes they are doing.

As far as Manaburn goes, I don't see that being too big of a problem for wizards in high level raiding guilds. Correct me if I am wrong, but you guys could just time it (as long as the wait between isn't too ridiculous) if a number of wizards want to use it on an uber mob?

As far as the CH changes goes, I don't think it changes a whole lot, whether or not tanks will ever need to be healed for 10K. No matter what, EQ will always be balanced around the largest and most efficient heal if mobs are designed to do damage to one primary target. Having CH lower doesn't change it's distinction as the best heal around. Although all these tank shield abilities etc might help break that part of the game up.

You have to admit one thing though: all these changes take balls on the part of the development team.

Tarissa

10-08-2002, 11:56 PM

Hmm once a minute and targetted, I can see how that would be a bit difficult now. Though it just changes things.

Manaburn nerf needed to be done, I'm sure the wizard boards are enraged as it only allowed them to farm millions of plat and not helpful too much on raids. You can have my acrobatics bitches!

And the CH thing isn't a big change at all really.

Not really groundbreaking, but some I'm sure there's the lobby that doesn't really like change whining... as they will about anything when something is taken away.

All of luclin now needs to be changed though heh

;D

Zarxen

10-09-2002, 12:19 AM

Hopefully they will make it more enjoyable for Mages during raids via other means. I know necros never liked the mana xfer thing when they got it in luclin and I never enjoyed it during Luclin.

Atleast they seem to understand as I get from the post.

.................................................. .................................................. .....

We view Magicians as an excellent source of damage, especially with the many pet enhancements that have been made over the past year. To be honest, it is a more than a small shame that their full energies have been viewed as "needed" to be spent, full-time, purely on transferring their mana to others. Magicians are supposed to be the masters of elemental conjuration and highly respected as a damage-dealer, not the masters of mana transferrence.

Nuuk

10-09-2002, 01:11 AM

Well...

You all do not realize it yet maybe, but this will seriously break the game and have the reverse effect of what VI is trying to accomplish.

If these changes were live tonight, we would not have beat the emperor even if he had half as many HP. We would not be able to beat VT.

They state they are trying to bring the game back into balance to make it more skill oriented and less about zerging, but that is exactly what it will mean will be necessary unless they are seriously retuning every single encounter to the appropriate correct level. But what are they going to base this on?? 40 people? 50 people? What level of equipment?? Can you clerics sit on these fights like we used to do? No way in hell with the agro on Luclin mobs. So how will clerics get mana to fight these mobs?

Are they going to give Seru 200K HP? Are they going to have to add AE's and other NPC AE dots the the bosses to compensate for the lack of HP??

Is this doable? Yes I think. But you know how long it will take to accomplish this?? A long time!! To tune every major encounter in the game will take a very long time. So what this means is the game will be broke for a long time and every guild will be brought to a stand still while they do patch after patch and retune every single encounter. Less HP and more strategy? Quicker fights? I'm all for this, but just lowering the HP on every single mob is not gonna do it and Zerging will become very popular again rather fast.

Most of the uber luclin encounters are about endurance, not strategy. Sure the Emp fight and the HP fight are fun and require coordination. Are they going to make every fight like this?? That will take a while!!

I guess we will have to wait and see, but expect that the loot flow will be on short supply for a while till they fix what they are about to break...

Of course, thats just my opinion, I could be wrong!!

Torrid

10-09-2002, 02:33 AM

Heh I love these people who think manaburn is even remotely useful other than killing 32k hp mobs. Newsflash: its not. 4 casts of EER = my manaburn.

And yes Nuuk, I understood fully what these changes mean to the game immediately. And you are correct. What this will do is make us require a dozen clerics and to get them all 15 FT. At least with that many clerics in rotation, they should be able to sit down.

Verant is not competent enough to tune the encounters to these changes in one patch, period. Half the encounters in the game will be broken for weeks. Guilds without a lot of clerics will be fucked. (hi Hoss)

The funny part is, I agree with all the changes for the most part. Except I'd have simply changed manaburn into something different that is *gasp* useful. The PERFECT solution would be to turn it into a percent based damage spell. Think about it: it would solve two problems at once. Mobs with tons of hp that would be impossible due to the mod rod nerf would suddenly become doable. Its not overpowered because the fights would have to last a certain amount of time at least because of the 1 per minute thing.

I also think mod rods should have like 5 charges, and cost 5 times as much mana to cast. That way a mage doesn't have to keep track of any of that shit. Make one before the fight and youre done.

CH nerf is silly. It changes nothing. Clerics will still rotate exactly as before, except w/o mod rods. How many CHs healed over 7500 hp? not many. If you wanna nerf the spell, nerf it right. Of course you'd have to retune the entire game, but VI pretty much committed itself to doing that anyway.

Had verant had the balls to nerf this shit a long time ago, they would have made it a lot better for everyone. Btw, wheres the nerf for ranger AA archery?

Andaas

10-09-2002, 02:49 AM

They could make every wizard on every server very happy if they just replaced manaburn with gather mana.

Maelikki

10-09-2002, 03:10 AM

CH nerf isnt really a nerf atm but will be in Pop with lvl 65 warriors with 355sta and another 10% more hp.

The rod nerf wouldnt be bad if most of the luclin fights werent designed with the idea of a large ammount of mana available. Or someone need to explain me how to kill the damn kaas in vt without rods as it is.

Nerfing rods means a whole revamping of luclin encounters which i doubt will be done.

AS for the monk nerf thingy well i think the whole melee damage avoidance/mitigation system needed a revamp not just hit the monks with the nerf stick :/

Tarissa

10-09-2002, 03:12 AM

Part of the changes, Nuuk, was an encounter rebalance, so speculating that we would not be able to beat mob X or Y is something neither you nor I really has any means to say with credibility.

Rezz

10-09-2002, 04:26 AM

The big question is: is the change enough to even make monks feel it?

My feeling says no.

CH has been overpowered ever since velious, however velious and luclin were designed around it. Same with defensive. 2/3 the game will need to be completely retuned because of the nerf to CH.

Manaburn has been asking to be nerfed since it's implimentation, that was a long time coming.

Hopefully VI thinks carefully about encounter redesigns and takes into account their nerf to Mod rods, because otherwise I feel bad for the mages that still play.

Arcius

10-09-2002, 06:13 AM

Did they ever get frenzied burnout working?

Pet haste is capped around 80% or so. Flurry does not work. Any parses I've seen show no significant damage increase over burnout 4 + muzzle (like 100 maybe? probably closer).

Yeah, mod rods were stupid. But why can't I rod myself more than once a minute? Limit how many rods I can give away if you have to destroy the need for mages.

A lot of people will get fucked. They replaced good items with Shields of Auras, Halos of Enlightening Barriers, etc. so they could get mana regen at 0 hp loss (these have rune effects). Now what? There are people stuck with a Shield of Auras that upgraded from a Essence of Nature.

The pet upgrades were a joke. On a raid, pet damage is horrible. In xp, it's nice but already was pre-upgrade. My nukes are ok, but without ancients mages are still a half-wizard.

I can't wait to see what kind of crap PoP is if they are still finishing (or starting over?) Luclin with a new expansion in 2 weeks.

aed

10-09-2002, 06:24 AM

I think Zead and Poosaecat is gonna be alot more popular after this change ;D.

/Aedail

Karendra

10-09-2002, 06:27 AM

noone likes zead!

Rolist

10-09-2002, 07:06 AM

These changes are brutal. Unless they decrease high end Luclin mobs' hit points by at least 3/4, they'd be impossible without mod rods. The only really bad change is the mod rod one. Some people may have thought CH rotations were "boring", but they were a viable strategy that took good coordination between clerics, tanks, mages, shaman, and other classes. Maintaining a 30-minutes CH rotation against Aten Ha Ra through cleric deaths, linkdeaths, and while being grav-fluxed every minute or so was no picnic, and DID require skill and tactics; there was a reason our 2-boxed clerics preferred not to be in the rotation. After this patch, the only tactic will be zerging, since you'll never be able to keep up with uber mob dps, unless they're also nerfed to have the dps of moss snakes.

It's way too late to make such sweeping changes to the game; they should just let it be. If anyone actually believes VI will properly balance all existing encounters that require CH rotations and mod rods, they don't know how VI operates. Many high-end mobs in Luclin and Velious will be unkillable for months at least - guaranteed, hehe.

Stomp

10-09-2002, 07:33 AM

I didn't give most of the changes much mind, or even think about them too much, except for one, the Monk nerf

I really feel bad for those people, that were surfing around the everquest sites a couple of years ago when Kunark was released for information on what class to play. They looked over skills, skill caps, avoidance caps, and likewise information. They chose Monk because of the combination of skills and caps and after 2 years of playing the character, with over 60 to 70 days played, they hit them hard with a cut back in their skills just because there are some items that are all/all that make them better tanks than Warriors and knights and took the lazy approach to fixing the issue. They didnt want to make sweeping changes to all/all 0 weight items to make them monk unfriendly, instead, what they did was hurt the people that have been playing a class for the last 2 years based on what they believed the class to be based on their skill caps.

Rhedd

10-09-2002, 07:43 AM

Fucking morons is what they are....but hey thats why I am not playing anymore

Eomer

10-09-2002, 08:03 AM

The mod rod nerf had to happen in some form Rolist, there is no denying it. You can't design meaningful encounters when you have to assume that healer mana is essentially infinite.

And yea, unless they have had this coming down the pipe for awhile, and have had a few people retuning for the past few weeks, then I would really fear the patch :D. Whatever though, it's going to significantly change the game, and hopefully for the better.

I remember our first Vulak fight; it was the most boring 35 minutes I had ever spent raiding in EQ, basically. But in Luclin, that length and type of fight seems to be the new standard, and that's partially why I quit. Hopefully they will get fight times back into a reasonable time frame, where it's more about strategy and tactics than it is about endurance and error control.

Phaera

10-09-2002, 08:10 AM

Time to adjust and adapt I guess.

Rolist

10-09-2002, 08:20 AM

Yeah, overall the changes aren't bad IF, and only IF they can successfully retune high end encounters to make mobs like Emp , Cursed, Arch Lich, High Priest, Burrower, all VT bosses, and Seru basically trivial (in terms of dps and hitpoints to make them killable), which they won't - it's a given with VI. The interim balancing period will suck...

Yendii

10-09-2002, 09:24 AM

I think they should have included an appology for the SoL expansion. People were doing rod piles before Luclin and VI saw fit to improve the mod rod. Why did they improve the mod rod? Because they designed mobs with high AC and HPs.

They broke their game with SoL. Now apparently they are going to fix it in one patch. Yeah right.

Most people can agree that changes needed to be made. What irks me is the way VI continues to treat its customers as children who won't play right with their toys. They supplied us with T-rods and put us in front of mobs with millions of hps and then try to shame us for the lowly boring roles we've assigned to mages and clerics.

I wish VI would tell us which tactics/techniques they would like us to use so we can avoid misunderstandings in the future.

Lola

10-09-2002, 09:37 AM

then try to shame us for the lowly boring roles

I dunno, it seems like they're saying "We fucked up" pretty clearly to me. I don't see any blame or shame being placed on the player.

Mitsy

10-09-2002, 09:49 AM

I totally disagree with the monk changes. A Warrior should be able to take hits better then a monk sure. But a monk should be able to dodge better and essential take as much damage as a Warrior/Tank. The issue here is not that we "tank" better it's that when we get hit we are taking the same amount of damage as a Warrior with 1500ac combined with not getting hit as much making monk a better tank. In most situations. The problem here is the defense system not the monk. But rather then fix there system they nerf the monks.

Maybe i'm reading the "fix" all wrong. But IMO a monk should take 150% the damage a warrior would take. EI. if warrior takes 300 a monk would have taken 450 with same hit. Who knows maybe that is what they are trying to do.

The real issue is the warriors ability to take hits. Instead they nerf monks to make the warriors feel like they are better tanks. The AC system is still horribly broken. A bandaid isn't gonna help it.

I still think monks should get parry and dogde from behind. =)

Mitsy

Rolist

10-09-2002, 09:57 AM

I don't think Verant designs mobs or encounters with any strategy in mind to defeat them. If players find a strategy that works, great, but I doubt Verant likes the strategies we choose. I really think Verant intents mobs to be zerged to death. If players find a sure-fire strategy, it needs to be nerfed and the players made to feel guilty for using it...

Well, maybe not, but it seems that way sometimes with all their constant fiddling with things. :D

Sirensa

10-09-2002, 10:20 AM

I really don't think the changes are bad at all. If it gives us a chance for a potentially fun and/or different expansion, where there is at least a chance in hell at getting away from CH chains, then I am all for the changes.

The CH change will at least make it so Healing Adept and Healing Gift have more of a chance of making an impact. I would like to see that focus items can affect CH now, but who knows.

There really are very few fights where mod-rodding is essential to winning - aten, emp, the really gay blobs. Most things in VT can be ch rotated with a min of 5 clerics, ancient mana-song, and 0 rods, assuming your clerics have FT15 and decent manapools. Seru is a joke, as is cursed. I know mages are up in a roar - but it is rather demeaning to be a "mod rod bish". Although the target, cast no drop rod crap will be a pain in the ass.

Monk changes are long overdue. A monk shouldn't be the best tank, period. However, word on the monk board is a SIT IN is on schedule!! So protesters warm up your butts!!

Manaburn nerf is inconsequential and really only stops the group of 5-6 wizards from MB'ing Kunark dragons and selling the profits - big deal. Most fights last 10+ mins anyways and even if POP fights last 10-20 mins, there will still be time for each wizard to cast his/her manaburn if he/she desires during the fight. Once per minute? BFD.

It's unfortunate that it took Verant so long to realize these changes were necessary and to implement them. However, it potentially improves gameplay and we're all bored with gameplay as it stands now.

Predictability and formula ch-chain fights have already done enough damage to gameplay. Hopefully we never have to CH-chain again!! :D (ok yeah so wishful thinking I am sure)

Mitsy

10-09-2002, 10:37 AM

"monks shouldn't be the best tanks"

I wasn't aware they where.

Seriously though not trying be a smart ass but, when is the last time you saw a monk tanking the AOW or the Emp. The only thing this nerf affects is your top 1% of monks. Other then the 4-5 monks in HOSS no other monks on the server are even close to tanking as well as Stomp or Cardinal. The whole monks making better tanks only refers to single or group exp type mobs and your top 1-2% of the monks. 99 times out of a 100 the war/sk/pal is gonna tank better.

Monks aren't the best tanks, a close second when you compare the top 5 of all classes, yes. I just think they choose the easy way out. Instead of fixing AC they nerf monks.

Mitsy

Eomer

10-09-2002, 10:42 AM

Uhm Mitsy, I think they are doing basically what you suggest, making it so that monks get hit harder, but still retain their ability to be hit less. That's the way I read it anyway. Now Monks and Rangers can coordinate whine fests! :p

And it's still possible that they are changing the AC system in PoP. I would hope they do anyway, otherwise warriors are still going to basically be nothing but a large pool of hitpoints.

And they had to specifically nerf monks, otherwise they would have had to make every plate class take damage better, and perhaps chain too. PR-wise, that might have been the best choice, but the game is trivial enough as it is.

I wonder what they are doing to adjust Manaburn in PvP though? Not that anyone really cares, though :).

Sirensa

10-09-2002, 10:52 AM

Seriously though not trying be a smart ass but, when is the last time you saw a monk tanking the AOW or the Emp.
Well we don't do AOW - but I've seen FOH monks tank just about every mob in VT and Emp. Without having to resort to any defensive discs, they were still able to mitigate damge nearly as well as a warrior - without any penalty to their offensive abilities. Warriors have remained *best tank* only because of their defensive/evasive discs - not because they have insane damage mitigation skills.

And these changes are meant to affect the high end content players. A monk in an experience GROUP will still be just as effective. A monk's soloing ability may be diminished but I seriously doubt it will make it impossible for them to solo. In fact it very well may not even require downtime for a monk to continue soloing.

Would be nice if people, monks in particular, would see how these changes actually come into play, before resorting to sit-ins and crying foul play. Everyone in the end game knows that a change to monks has been long overdue. As well as a variety of other changes, including the change to CH. It's not a personal nerf to you - its a change that will hopefully better gameplay and give encounters a chance to be challenging. Something we haven't seen in a very long time.

Zarxen

10-09-2002, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by Eomer

I remember our first Vulak fight; it was the most boring 35 minutes I had ever spent raiding in EQ, basically. But in Luclin, that length and type of fight seems to be the new standard, and that's partially why I quit. Hopefully they will get fight times back into a reasonable time frame, where it's more about strategy and tactics than it is about endurance and error control.

Heh, so true. I had the same experience with my first Vulak fight. I got home from work and Vindi was doing Vulak at 2 am pst on a weekday. However with the this strategy, that most of us have been using for over a year now, a prectictable outcome came with it. And it came within 35-40 mins.

It's predictability that makes encounters boring. However I can also see that a good deal of people are not going to want to re-learn the game.

Rolist

10-09-2002, 11:15 AM

Wow, Vulak took that long to kill? It's like a Luclin mob! I never had the "pleasure" of fighting Vulak since I was on an extended break during Hoss's whole ToV/ST period.

Tilea

10-09-2002, 11:18 AM

"Fucking morons is what they are....but hey thats why I am not playing anymore"

Haha, you and me both Rhedd!!

If I did still play EQ though, this is what I'd be concerned about the most. Verant has obviosuly wanted to make this change for a very long time, especially in preparation for whatever they feel should be the high end encounters for PoP. But, have they tested it at all? They've proven in the past a bazillion times that their own internal testing isn't worth shit. The only way they can really test the changes that will be a huge part of PoP is by putting it live. So they do that now... what? 2 weeks before PoP? And they're assuming that they can get it right within those 2 weeks so that the PoP encounters aren't totally fucked for a long while, the way luclin encounters will be?

Mwahaha, have fun, guys!!! ;)

Tarissa

10-09-2002, 11:50 AM

Originally posted by Mitsy
[B]I totally disagree with the monk changes. A Warrior should be able to take hits better then a monk sure. But a monk should be able to dodge better and essential take as much damage as a Warrior/Tank. The issue here is not that we "tank" better it's that when we get hit we are taking the same amount of damage as a Warrior with 1500ac combined with not getting hit as much making monk a better tank. In most situations. The problem here is the defense system not the monk. But rather then fix there system they nerf the monks.

They don't want to make warriors better, so they're bringing you down to the chain class level. A monks mitigation shouldn't make them the 2nd best tanks in the game. You're getting your mitigation lowered. I'm not sure if they're touching your avoidance. You'll probably tank as well as a rogue or ranger. You know that monks, barring minor hp upgrades and defensive had essentially better tanking abilities than a warrior? Warriors got by just on equipment and EB weapons. That's a pretty blah life.

Maybe i'm reading the "fix" all wrong. But IMO a monk should take 150% the damage a warrior would take. EI. if warrior takes 300 a monk would have taken 450 with same hit. Who knows maybe that is what they are trying to do.

The real issue is the warriors ability to take hits. Instead they nerf monks to make the warriors feel like they are better tanks. The AC system is still horribly broken. A bandaid isn't gonna help it.

This is what they're doing

I still think monks should get parry and dogde from behind. =)

:|

Tarissa

10-09-2002, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by Tilea
"Fucking morons is what they are....but hey thats why I am not playing anymore"

Haha, you and me both Rhedd!!

If I did still play EQ though, this is what I'd be concerned about the most. Verant has obviosuly wanted to make this change for a very long time, especially in preparation for whatever they feel should be the high end encounters for PoP. But, have they tested it at all? They've proven in the past a bazillion times that their own internal testing isn't worth shit. The only way they can really test the changes that will be a huge part of PoP is by putting it live. So they do that now... what? 2 weeks before PoP? And they're assuming that they can get it right within those 2 weeks so that the PoP encounters aren't totally fucked for a long while, the way luclin encounters will be?

Mwahaha, have fun, guys!!! ;)

Tilea is approaching warning level 3 of retired bitter eq player forum camper!

Rhedd

10-09-2002, 12:18 PM

I must be at like level 9 =\

Rhaagol

10-09-2002, 12:21 PM

This is the view from a player whow as for a short time in the high end ((never saw emp or VT mobs dead at my feet, the rest I have), and I am now in Novus Invictus, while not the highest of Dro, we have held our own, moving up the ladder with tunare dead and such.

The modrod change is going to be rough on many guilds that are not in the highest tier, whose gear as Sirensa stated does not include clerics all having 15ft, and ancient bard song playing for us. We learned to modrod to make up for these differences in gear. We've used 3 clerics to kill KT or Yelinak, but this is only possible using mod rods with the gear and aa we have. Not only will the high high end need to be retuned, but mobs like KT or Creator or Tunare, will need decent adjustments to be able to still accomplish the kill with the present amount of numbers you can kill these mobs with.

The CH change I think is one they are more presing onto warriors then any other class. With everyone hitting the AC cap, AC became useless, so the only difference between warriors and the rets was the hp gap we achieved. Warriors became focused on getting the highest hp gear they could get, so we see tanks now with 8k+ hps buffed. With PoP, if they release 150hp items, we will see this go beyond that, not to mention new buffs. By limiting CH to 7500hps, VI is basically limiting tanks to 7500hps. I'm sure we could come, or someone would, come up with strats to heal tanks beyond that many hps, but it seems more VI is attempting to limit warrior hps so we are not as HP frenzy as we have been with luclin and velious. With PoP AA, in present gear I will break the 7500hp mark at level 65 with the stat cap raises (7200 now). With CH at 7500hps, HP's are less important for me once I hit 7500hps buffed, I can focus on increasing other stats like resists in place of hp gear (say using a 50hps range with 15 sv all instead of AoW bow for its 100hps).

Monks... deal, leather shouldn't be able to absorb dmg like steel~ hehe.

(slight flaw in my CH logic, extra hps can still save a warrior if a CH is late and not heal you to full, so the next tops you off, but it is not as effective as the 10k heal).

Sirensa

10-09-2002, 12:34 PM

We learned to modrod to make up for these differences in gear. We've used 3 clerics to kill KT or Yelinak, but this is only possible using mod rods with the gear and aa we have.
Well I do believe they stated that the tuning to these changes would not be limited to POP only.

However - I think the point of the Mod Rod nerf is exactly what you just explained. You shouldn't be able to kill KT or Yelinak with 3 clerics sucking down mod-rods. Mod rods shouldn't make that big of an impact on the doability of an encounter. The ability to provide "unlimited mana" despite gear or AA is exactly what was wrong with mod rod 2 in the first place. I believe you have just proven exactly why this nerf is taking place.

Sirensa

10-09-2002, 12:40 PM

By limiting CH to 7500hps, VI is basically limiting tanks to 7500hps.

With CH at 7500hps, HP's are less important for me once I hit 7500hps buffed, I can focus on increasing other stats like resists in place of hp gear
I don't know of any tank that seriously won't continue to drive for more HP gear. The amount CH heals has nothing to do with it. More HP = more damage a tank can take = more time you have to heal them before they are dead. More HP will never stop being a good thing.

aed

10-09-2002, 12:50 PM

Mitsy, you are proposing that they fix AC, so AC actually matters. But if they do this, it won't move a monks tanking capabilities, since most monks have just as high AC as warriors, or in many cases probably even higher thanks to their bonus.

A quote from Shaidi in VT: "wow that mob missed me 9 times in a row".

.. silly monks :P.

I'm happy about the changes myself, I think they were well needed to be able to change EQ from the way it was in SoL, as a melee, EQ has not been anywhere near as fun in SoL as it was back in SoV.

I think most people could see the changes coming really, I've lost count on the times I've heard that a monk tanks better than a warrior, hell the monks themselves have been posting this on their own boards, no monk can deny this, and I don't think any monk in their right mind can say that they should be able to tank as good as a warrior.

/Aedail

aed

10-09-2002, 12:52 PM

I have to agree with Sirensa on the mod2 change. Mod2 trivialized alot of SoV's content, making alot of the mobs way easier than they should be, by nerfing mod2 they will bring the encounters back to closer how hard they used to be back then, does this necessarily have to be a bad thing? I don't think so.

/Aedail

Forty

10-09-2002, 01:26 PM

Modrod2 = manastone. /shrug

Tilea

10-09-2002, 02:03 PM

Hehe, I'm not bitter :) It just seems that the timing of these nerfs is way too coincidental with PoP coming out very soon. It seems to me that the changes are a beta test for the encounters they want to have in PoP.

None of these changes would have affected my Ranger anyways. Although I do still say archery mastery should have been toned down ages ago. but that's another story!

Karendra

10-09-2002, 02:34 PM

why should they retune SoV mobs(cept maybe RoV since hes after velious) when every encounter was killed before luclin ie with 0 mod rod 2.
on some SoL mobs of course i see the need to retune them.
about monk nerf: i think they had to do something with them compared to knights/warriors. but we all dont know what excact they did . i dont want to coment about that until i see the result:)
CH: this change is for pop only in SoL you dont realy have 7500 heals anyways.
mod rod2: that thing was broken in my eyes:)
MB: some people on some servers were dicks who cannot wield power so there ya go~

Varran

10-09-2002, 04:24 PM

I think a big part of the problem is that people think every mob should be killable by their guild. When AoW was first created he was thought to be unkillable, but with player improvements that changed and then seru came along, who was tuned to be unkillable, and that changed. With modrod2 gone it will mean that strategy will start to become more in play for guilds. No longer can you just stack a hundred rods off to the side and make skill trivial.

Back to the days of guildleaders and tacticians trying various strategies to accomplish the impossible, and fewer guilds being able to kill mobs even after endless errors, saved by poor content.

It's about to be a tough time for mid-tier guilds that counted on modrods, but hopefully they'll welcome the chance to play smarter.

Varran

Grohtem

10-09-2002, 04:27 PM

All theese changes was needed to be done. Maybe they are just releasing it so late cause we will be fed up with PoP while they make the retuning in SoL. Hopefully they will make encounters more fun, atleast it is possible now. But i have almost lost my faith in verants ability to make a change for the better.
/shrug

Forty

10-09-2002, 05:04 PM

I disagree with the notion that the current encounters don't require skill or tactics. The current encounters are currently about just that, skill and tactics. People seem to forget this as we become better at dealing with errors. Most of the current Luclin encounters would be undoable by many guilds with their current numbers without modrods. All this change will do is require MORE players thus encouraging Zerg fest 2003. This is with the mobs in their current state. Lowering the hitpoints will NOT encourage guilds that currently don't kill these mobs to suddenly find tactics or skill. But, with the overkill of players, they will zerg the mobs to death if the mobs are not tuned correctly. Just lowering the hitpoints won't solve that problem or make the encounters anymore exciting.

Eomer

10-09-2002, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by Tilea
Hehe, I'm not bitter :) It just seems that the timing of these nerfs is way too coincidental with PoP coming out very soon. It seems to me that the changes are a beta test for the encounters they want to have in PoP.

Uhm, Tilea, did you even read VI's thing? That is EXACTLY why they are doing the changes now, because PoP is coming out. They are not a beta test for how they want encounters however. Their reason for changing this stuff is because several things that were changed (mod rods especially) were basically handcuffing their ability to make encounters new and interesting.

Forty

10-09-2002, 05:08 PM

Eomer is correct. Verant basically lacks so much creativity they are unable to create encounters that use items currently in the game.

Mitsy

10-09-2002, 06:00 PM

True Aedail sorta. When you say most monks have the same AC your right most "high end" monks do. If AC matter then a warrior would actually strive to get more AC. Sure your #1 warrior and your #1 monk have close AC. But now if that warrior actually strived for AC (ie not using pants with 16ac because they have 65hps =) then im sure that warrior would be well above what the monk is.

Your average 60 monk has 1100-1200ac vs your average 60 warrior is about 1200-1300 now if AC matter your average 60 warrior could easily attain 1400+.

I agree with monks not being "the best or even the 3rd best tank". When a monk gets hit they should take damage like a druid(ie leather). But avoidance should be high enough where since they dont get as often it puts them somewhere near SK/Pal in total damage taken per session >>>IMO<<<.

In a perfect world agi and dex would improve a monks avoidance and this would all be moot(sp?) but it's Verants world =)

Who knows changes haven't even happened yet. Maybe they will do exactly as I said. But until they fix AC the nerf is only gonna be felt by your lower monks without high ac gear >>IMO<<.

Mitsy

Eomer

10-09-2002, 06:48 PM

I thought AGI did add to avoidance AC or something?

Mitsy

10-09-2002, 07:22 PM

It's like 9agi = 1ac or something

Mitsy

Rajakhan

10-09-2002, 07:38 PM

Once you're past the 130 mark on agi I think it makes little difference.

Eh, they made the higher end game somewhat rougher, but if they keep up with their promise to tune high end mobs I think it will add an interesting element to gameplay. Since they introduced modrod2 a couple of shamans, and a dedicated mage and cleric crew could keep up a mt for an unlimited amount of time without running oom (on gimp stuff anyways). Which means, even with the gimpest dps, I'm talking Rajakhan quality here, you could have all the time you wanted to pummel on the mob. That seemed a little broken.
Complete heal was becoming more and more powerful, and even though this is like pulling out, running and hopping in a cab on your honeymoon, it opens the door for some new heals in PoP. Plus CH rots are boring or disenchanting for clerics from waht I've read :|
I won't bitch too much about the monks getting their mitagation reduced, because the only difference between me and a warrior was about 900~ hp, a discipline and taunt (broken or not, you still got a button for it :/) and my higher avoidance rate. Not that I'm a huge fantasy/lore fan or whatever, but a warrior encased of 3 cubic feet of enchanted aluminum or whatever should probably take a pimp slap with a little more grace than some guy running around in really tight leather and falling over repeatedly.

I'd bargain for dodge from behind though. I mean, they teach that in like grade one of Ninja school :D

Zappo

10-09-2002, 07:40 PM

AC and AGI 101
agi works in an odd way

if you have good agi i //think// it works w/ your AC to make you get missed by mobs more
if you have crap AGI but crazy ac you should take almost every hit but not as much dmg
but w/ the AC cap its you just wana ignore ac and think about Hp more, agi helps but i dont like random things (and have crappy agi!)

-ps
the points that you see agi do more i dont know off the top of my head
but if i rember right at like 4 points from 0 to 225 the agi to ac thing jumps up

Zarxen

10-09-2002, 08:47 PM

Originally posted by Varran

It's about to be a tough time for mid-tier guilds that counted on modrods, but hopefully they'll welcome the chance to play smarter.

Varran

Possibly. but then again they could also have the the extra 5 lvls and other ability's that POP provides.

But until the product arrives and people get the lvls etc then ya.

Tarissa

10-09-2002, 08:52 PM

Originally posted by Mitsy
True Aedail sorta. When you say most monks have the same AC your right most "high end" monks do. If AC matter then a warrior would actually strive to get more AC. Sure your #1 warrior and your #1 monk have close AC. But now if that warrior actually strived for AC (ie not using pants with 16ac because they have 65hps =) then im sure that warrior would be well above what the monk is.

Your average 60 monk has 1100-1200ac vs your average 60 warrior is about 1200-1300 now if AC matter your average 60 warrior could easily attain 1400+.

I agree with monks not being "the best or even the 3rd best tank". When a monk gets hit they should take damage like a druid(ie leather). But avoidance should be high enough where since they dont get as often it puts them somewhere near SK/Pal in total damage taken per session >>>IMO<<<.

In a perfect world agi and dex would improve a monks avoidance and this would all be moot(sp?) but it's Verants world =)

Who knows changes haven't even happened yet. Maybe they will do exactly as I said. But until they fix AC the nerf is only gonna be felt by your lower monks without high ac gear >>IMO<<.

Mitsy

What matters but the end result of how much damage you take? 1 Discipline and less stamina per hit point is not what I call an accurate gap between monks and warriors! Especially if sans disc you tank better than them.

And comparable classes of each. Saying norma" monks means you also compare to normal warriors, so if you level the playing field, the situation remains the same!

And I think the sk/paladins would have something to say if you compromised to saying you would tank as good as them! They need an improvement badly enough already.

Angelie

10-10-2002, 01:32 AM

People are obviously abusing the power of Mod Rod 2 in certain zones...having unlimitted mana is just nuts... I just remember times (plenty of times) that mobs were killable in SoV without the use of Mod Rod 2...what did it take? i guess only the super l33t ppl who have done it would know...but like Forty said... Mod Rod 2 = Mana stone... and in many areas in Norrath....you dont need a Mod Rod to kill a boss...

Just limit Mod Rod 2 to Luclin Zones pls...the way Mana Stone was limitted to the old world only...if anything....limit the Mod Rod 2 to the l33test zones like Ssra, VT, & maybe Seru...at least just for starters...JUST for starters...then MAYBE if its still not enough...follow through with plan B which is what was metioned.

Okay many ppl have already mentioned how skill is trivial due to the fact that the only thing u need to worry about is just Chain CH with unlimitted mana through mod roding... but pls explain to me why there are only 1-2 guilds per server who can kill things (As in "sh*t that mob was super hard and the best so and so guild could kill it..now we can too")? I dun wanna point fingers but there really arent many guilds out there who has mastered the CH order yet to even claim it trivial (yes elitest guilds are exempted from this statement). Yes Chain CH SHOULD NOT prolly be the way of doing things...but even though it exists...not many guilds can still do it... and now... in all honesty, i feel that some of these guilds can only do it or kill things Pre-Luclin due to the mod rod 2. Take it out out of the pre luclin zones and maybe u can look for more strategy and tactics and not just 3 clerics for a KT fight. But the top bosses in SoL are just too scary to even look at without a gazzillion modrods sorrounding you coming from a view point of a cleric. So even with the Skill and Strat Trevial due to the CH / Mod Rod combo....i wonder why there's only one guild so far (yup im sure it'll change in the future coz i believe that there is more strategy involved in killing bosses than just gobblin rods) in DRo who can kill the High Priest-not even gonna mention emp yet. He's been out for over a year and other guilds still cant kill him even with their oh so exaulted CH / Mod Rod ability.

PS...never in my entire life would i have imagine to kill Vindicator with about 10 ppl and me only gobbling 1 rod... Stomp ur nutz =P(sorry you died when he had 1% life though but grats on ur BP)

Zarxen

10-10-2002, 01:51 AM

Originally posted by Angelie
People are obviously abusing the power of Mod Rod 2 in certain zones...having unlimitted mana is just nuts... I just remember times (plenty of times) that mobs were killable in SoV without the use of Mod Rod 2...what did it take? i guess only the super l33t ppl who have done it would know...but like Forty said... Mod Rod 2 = Mana stone... and in many areas in Norrath....you dont need a Mod Rod to kill a boss...

Actually Angelie the whole dropping of rods was popular back before Luclin even( with mod rod1). Around the time alot of guilds started doing Ntov even, it became a somewhat common job for mages to do, while killing the various dragons there and for the coh rotations etc. But ofcourse with luclin and the introduction of modrod 2, made it so that Magicians roles in high end raiding were primarily a mana giver. And it's sad really that it turned out that way.

Angelie

10-10-2002, 02:47 AM

Originally posted by Zarxen

Actually Angelie the whole dropping of rods was popular back before Luclin even( with mod rod1). Around the time alot of guilds started doing Ntov even, it became a somewhat common job for mages to do, while killing the various dragons there and for the coh rotations etc.

Aye I am aware of the usage of the Mod Rod 1 in Pre Luclin encounters...but u cannot even possibly compare the value between mod rod 1 and mod rod 2...if they were even nearly comparible...ppl wont even be bothering on flaming so much about the nerfing of the current mod rod 2...for fun's sake one time Arcius was summoning Mod Rod 1 in ntov b4 the Hoss RoV quest...ask him how much ppl laughed at it =P

I have no probs with mod rod 1 since its not nearly as good as mod rod 2...but please...Mod rod 2 is at a whole new level ... super level

Serendib

10-10-2002, 05:28 AM

Anyone remember the Plane of Sky before Kunark came out?

That was the pinnacle of Everquest ubermobs.

TACTICS - Everyone Losing HP, doing their job, doing damage, and eventually killing the mobs at the last second.

I dont think I ever heard the word CH said there, and it was the most fun I ever remember having on raids.

Tilea

10-10-2002, 08:17 AM

"Uhm, Tilea, did you even read VI's thing? That is EXACTLY why they are doing the changes now, because PoP is coming out. They are not a beta test for how they want encounters however. Their reason for changing this stuff is because several things that were changed (mod rods especially) were basically handcuffing their ability to make encounters new and interesting."

Thanks for treating me like an idiot, Eomer. And yes I did read it. What I SAID was that they're not giving their changes enough time. They should have made these changes a long time ago to see how it affected encounters in the game today, instead of assuming that 2 weeks will be plenty of time to find out how these changes will affect the encounters they have planned for PoP. If they think they worked out everything with their internal testing, than everyone's in for a rough ride. (not me!)

Eomer

10-10-2002, 09:55 AM

Didn't mean to treat you like an idiot Tilea, sorry. What I meant was that, for me personally, after reading their letter it was pretty apparent why they were making the changes. You sounded like you figured it was some sort of conspiracy to leave these changes to the last second.

Hehe, I'm not bitter It just seems that the timing of these nerfs is way too coincidental with PoP coming out very soon. It seems to me that the changes are a beta test for the encounters they want to have in PoP.

What I SAID was that they're not giving their changes enough time

I guess I am misunderstanding your first post, but from where I am standing you didn't say they weren't giving changes enough time, it seemed that you were accusing them of using these changes to test PoP encounters.

And chill a bit, I don't think you are anymore of an idiot than everyone else! :D

Gryfalia

10-10-2002, 10:09 AM

The only SoV fight that screams Mod Rod2 is AoW. Don't know about you, but hearkening back to the days of 'gee, he was killed pre-SoL' doesn't seem very exciting when you remember HOW he was killed pre-SoL.

Basically bind rushing, mass rezzing, total insanity.

Using ModRods quite often IS using strategy over brute force. To give strategy a fighting chance, some fights will need to be modified, AoW specifically comes to mind, but perhaps a few others.

In the end, tho, it will probably end up being those who have, the 'Ubers' gaining the most advantage over those behind. The guilds in the lead will be MORE in the lead, because they have more FT, more high Mana pool items, more HPs.

It's a lot easier to have enough mana for 'X' fight when you start with 750 more mana and regen an extra 10 a tick, no?

But at least a 60 cleric with gear and skills won't be replaceable by a 39 cleric with enough HP to rod twice and cast CH once.

So I actually like the change, but it will effect those not in the lead more than those who are. C'est la vie.

Gryfalia

Teutebod

10-10-2002, 10:49 AM

The only SoV fight that screams Mod Rod2 is AoW. Don't know about you, but hearkening back to the days of 'gee, he was killed pre-SoL' doesn't seem very exciting when you remember HOW he was killed pre-SoL.

Basically bind rushing, mass rezzing, total insanity.

AoW was killed by FoH and LoS the day before luclin was released, without modrod2. I doubt they had more than a handful deaths to accomplish that.

Rezz

10-10-2002, 11:00 AM

2 guilds, decked out in an extreme amount of Vulak quality loot and with (I'm guessing) 60-70ish members each at the raid with little to no room for any error whatsoever. And the fights were still pretty damn long. your average uberguild won't be able to handle that, as was proven by the fact that only 2 guilds on all servers accomplished it before Luclin.

Lola

10-10-2002, 11:12 AM

Well, you have to consider AA's and Luclin now as well.

Rolist

10-10-2002, 11:17 AM

I've said this before; using CH rotations and mod rods IS very strategic. I don't see it is boring as most people seem to. As a cleric, I actually like being relied upon to maintain a tedious but vital CH rotation while the rest of the classes contribute in their own unique ways to the defeat of the mob. The first time you beat a badass mob in a 40-minute fight you really feel like you accomplished something. CH rotations against mobs like Aten, Emp, and Seru require a huge amount of coordinated heals and guild-wide teamwork. These long encounters do get tedious the umpteenth time you engage in them, when you're farming loot though...

I just don't see how short fights like they're proposing could feel "epic" anymore after engaging in such long, difficult encounters like we've been doing for a year now. I like how flawless kills are possible now, although difficult on tough mobs currently, if you execute your strategy well. I really hope they don't make encounters require bind rushing, or zergish, chaotic fights in which strategy plays little part. I think Verant ran out of ideas on how to make boss mobs difficult. So instead of making the new PoP boss encounters totally unique and different than those in Luclin, they decided to just start totally over and nerf everyone; giving them different roles and powers.

Karendra

10-10-2002, 11:20 AM

you didnt had more then like FT2 on a person back then either.
no, AoW can be killed without modrod2 without zerging.
top end wars were close to 7k then now they have 8k.
your dps went up aswell with new weapons/spells.

Eomer

10-10-2002, 11:30 AM

I agree that having a modrod/ch rotation system in place does take strategy. However, that strategy wields way too much power. Because of that "strat" cleric mana is essentially infinite, and it will only get worse as clerics get more HP in PoP, making mod rodding even MORE efficient for clerics and mages alike.

I think the most obvious statement of how powerful mod rodding became is how many guilds suddenly could kill AoW within a few weeks of SoL's release. AA's may have had a hand in that, but modrods had a huge hand.

And while a 40 minute fight might feel epic purely because of the length, how fun are they really. In a lot of cases, once you get the fight down pat once, chances are that you will never fail it again, unless you totally fuck up. There is no risk in it anymore, it's just farming. A good 5 minute fight balanced so that you might lose 25% of the time would be awfully cool, especially if they don't put 3 hours of boring clearing in front of it. It's silly that with current design, you either win a fight with under a handful of deaths, or completely whipe out. What are the chances of say, the last two dozen people left in a fight finishing off the last 10% of Emp's hp? Not very good. You either win or lose by a landslide, there is no in betweens.

In the end, tho, it will probably end up being those who have, the 'Ubers' gaining the most advantage over those behind. The guilds in the lead will be MORE in the lead, because they have more FT, more high Mana pool items, more HPs.

I both agree with your statement, and think that it's a good thing. Back when I still occasionally raided, we had just gotten the hang of the HP fight. Eomer didn't have any flowing thought or other innate mana regen, had close to 1.5K less mana and HP than our best equipped clerics, yet was every bit as effective rotation healing as all the decked out clerics. Hey great for Eomer, but it doesn't make any sense. If this change spreads guilds out because suddenly their healing ability has dropped off, great! That's the way it should be. It's ridiculous that clerics fully decked out in the best that EQ had to offer (pre-VT) were no more efficient at healing than a gimpily equipped cleric with like 400 mana in items. I mean shit, go look at my profile, I had a velium ruby fucking veil.

Kattoo Tacit

10-10-2002, 12:10 PM

Perhaps I missed it if someone mentioned it. The information I see is talking about Mod2. Regular Modrods are not mentioned. If this is the case I see the mage filling the same role just being worked much harder. Many may be pumping the old rods at the new game pace, while filling in the gaps with Mod2Rods as the nerf permits. Truth is nobody really knows what will happen untill the situation is at hand.

Tilea

10-10-2002, 12:38 PM

If they need to find a way to shorten the length of fights, and still make it challenging, maybe they'll bring back the good old DT!

Varran

10-10-2002, 01:24 PM

The reason there is currently only one guild on this server that can do higher tier uber mobs, is that the ch rotation isn't the only part of the puzzle. I know a few guilds that had consistently flawless ch roations, but tanks were poorly placing mobs, other melee engaging too early, all manner of errors. The perfect rotation can't save a guild if half the dps drops during the first cycle due to poor attention to details.

Gryfalia

10-10-2002, 02:06 PM

For those who say AoW can be done both without ModRod2 and without some sort of 'zerg' method (be it stupid high numbers, massive rezzes or bind rushing somehow), with his current HP and current DPS, I say 'Do it'.

But having YOU do it (if you can) wouldn't even be the same as a guild who hasn't cleared VT a ton of times, isn't drenched in FT gear, or 125 HP/Mana gear.

Remember, I agree that ModRod 2 created a game that required, on the large scale, fights that were stupid long and stunningly boring. But to say 'well, 2 guilds killed him without ModRod 2, so you should too' also ignores the fact that those two guilds had obscene access to content that, for all practical purposes, isn't there any more. I hesitate to think of how many times FoH killed Vulak before he was changed. A lot of Vulak gear is still considered top of the line outside of VT/Emp.

And, from my recollection (and reading the LoS website), LoS did it with Shock of Swords and people did die a lot..hell, even Tigole died, so warriors must have been dropping. Actually, it says he died at 10%..hmm, sounds like warrior dies to enrage, spin, Tigole dies to enrage..;-) The FoH site is..down..for some reason (spam bombed by pissed off Monks? who knows). But I seem to recall that it wasn't in the same general neighborhood as clean. Doable, but clean.

But it ends up being a question of..

What is better? Needing to have 13 clerics in a rotation to have the mana to kill something or...needing 7 clerics and a lot of mod rods? I personally prefer needing 7 clerics with skill, some good gear and a guild working well together to pull it off. Both of the previous options (13 clerics or tons of rods) kinda sucked.

Gryfalia

Kaneis

10-10-2002, 02:15 PM

If I remember correctly, the first few kills LoS did on the AoW were using charmed giants to tank the AoW since they had more hps than the tanks and were easier to keep a CH rotation on.

Tilea

10-10-2002, 02:17 PM

"I know a few guilds that had consistently flawless ch roations, but tanks were poorly placing mobs, other melee engaging too early, all manner of errors. The perfect rotation can't save a guild if half the dps drops during the first cycle due to poor attention to details."

Apparetly you're not familiar with Hoss Positioning :D

Gryfalia

10-10-2002, 02:59 PM

I think LoS killed him once that way, nerfed the next day.

The kills I am referring to is post-that change, the day before SoL came out.

I remember trying to help/hang with Hoss killing KT and a certain CLERIC training the raid, causing mass death of an epic proportion. *coughnonamesofcoursecough*

But hey, I trust Nwinn to position well, I mean damn, she's a midget too..

Gryfalia

Arcius

10-10-2002, 06:45 PM

Rodding other people is not my problem. They might make Luclin bosses a lot more fun for everyone. I'm glad they are trying to make things more fun / challenging.

But, this isn't all they are doing. With the limit to one rod charge per minute they have severely nerfed mages. Mages who have spent AA points on hp skills and quick summoning are finding these useless now. Loot choices have become bad, self rune items have become useless for mages. I WANT A NO DROP MOD ROD 2 ADDED!

Arcius

10-10-2002, 06:49 PM

Why would you need mod rod 2? AoW fight is short compared to some Luclin bosses and mod rod 1 and / or necro feeds did the job.

AoW was killed without charmed giants before SoL was released, the first kill ever was with charmed giants (by two guilds doing a joint raid, I believe)

Gryfalia

10-10-2002, 07:34 PM

Like I said, LoS with Shock of Swords..

And, like I said, by 2 different guilds (the ones without charmed giants) dripping in Vulak loot..

Gryfalia

Arcius

10-11-2002, 01:50 AM

Sorry, I didn't see your post. I was too busy being pissed off at the rod nerf =\

aed

10-11-2002, 03:27 AM

The mana regen since FoH and SoS/LoS killed AoW have been upgraded severly, there is now Spiritual Purity from Beastlords, another 7 mana regen, bards got a new AE mana regen spell in SoL, there is Mental Clarity and several other things that boosts mana regen. Hell you can even put in Druids into the rotation probably. FT items are *very* common in SoL.

AoW is VERY doable without mod2.

/Aedail

Eomer

10-11-2002, 07:52 AM

Yea, the two guilds that killed him prior to SoL, killed him w/o mod rods and w/o the tons and tons of upgrades yielded by AA skills etc etc.

Honestly, don't complain that a mob like AoW is now unkillable, or even really hard to kill, it looks bad. He isn't THAT bad, and I personally don't think they even need to retune him.

And yea, LoS did kill him a few months before twice by using charmed giants and another guild, and even then they basically bind rushed him.

Emptiness

10-13-2002, 10:45 AM

You guys all have a perspective that is totally different from 97% of the rest of us. Don't tell me that AoW isn't hard...he is, and not even any of you are certain that you'll be able to kill the same shit with these changes...btw when was the last time you killed AoW w/out modrods? Wont you be thrilled if you find you cannot kill Aten or other VT shit? How many months did you waste on your keys?

Bottom line...people dont play games to balance out some great formula of "how many guilds should be successful" that some game developer dreamed up after snorting 15 lines of coke...they play to win, to advance, to get better...not to be held back because they used their available resources and were found to be too effective (this is neither a complaint or me crybabying because I havent killed AoW/VT, its just the truth).

Its a serious disappointment that modrods are being nerfed, but then again its VI...what can you expect. Mage pets are generally not allowed on raids, and our spells are gay and usually resisted :rolleyes: . So now I guess I'm back to strictly being a CoH whore...Although modrodding wasnt what I signed up for when I made my mage, it was nice to feel like I was making a real contribution...

Kinda funny...they made necro dots stackable just in time for all you l33t necros to start feeding mana again ;)

Ktul

10-13-2002, 10:59 AM

Part of this was copied from a post I left on Mages Tower.

I must admit when I first heard about the drastic changes I was upset, however if VI does truely reduces the endgame encounters strengths it may not be such a bad thing. I am skeptical about that though. I think bosses in VT, Ssra and Lord Seru wont have the changes needed to allow the current capable guilds to kill him...specifically Emperor. I have become accustomed to 30-45 min fights in SoL but I would really enjoy shorter encounters.

For over a year us mages have been a really busy class on raids....I enjoy the feeling of being needed and essential but Im afraid it may go back to the laughable class it was around RoK. If we are to stay "wanted" we are going to need some serious damage increase and / or ability to use our rods for our own mana regen.

I believe with the Druid/shaman heal upgrades that the loss of rods won't be so drasticically noticed specially considering you have their manapools/regen to help with heals.

btw Empti I hear what you are saying but to be honest the guild doesnt use my rods too much on AoW at this time...last killed a week ago by us.

all I can say now is only time will tell =|

Interesting poll done on Mage board

http://pub6.ezboard.com/fthemagicianstowerfrm31.showMessage?topicID=82.top ic

Eomer

10-13-2002, 11:30 AM

Empti, think of it this way: this change affects everyone, not just uber guilds or just lower tier guilds. It negatively impacts everyone. It doesn't benefit anyone at all, like some others have been trying to say.

not even any of you are certain that you'll be able to kill the same shit with these changes...

It's more or less a fact that a lot of stuff can't be killed anymore, at least not w/o doubling the amount of clerics you have. That is, if they leave stuff the same. Part of the change is that they will supposedly bring mobs more in line. We will see I guess.

they used their available resources and were found to be too effective

Mod rods weren't just too effective. They broke the game. Mana for cleric rotation heals etc was effectively infinite. You don't think there was a problem with that?

Zarxen

10-13-2002, 01:12 PM

That's a interesting thread Ktul. If that was posted 2 years ago, I wonder if the ratio would have been different?

I had fun with the mage before rods entered the game. Yes I wanted improvements with what I was working with. I would hope that pop provides some of that. I would expect the next lvl pets in pop to be atleast a rival if not better then the epic pet. And there should be some half-way decent nukes and debuffs.

But too answer that thread from the magician's tower, if I were to start a new class I would likely try and have fun with another class possibly a ranger or shaman or maybe a necro.

Luucas Maximus

10-14-2002, 10:27 AM

Must... tank... AoW.. before... nerf...

Lothbah

10-15-2002, 08:19 PM

Less Rods... CH not complete... no manaburn...

Less rods and inComplete Heal would make it look like Verant is shooting for making fights shorter right? Maybe not as dependant on CH rotations or even CH at all?

The manaburn nerf would prevent wizards from annihilating mobs with low hitpoints. The rods would also mean less extra mana for nukers and other damage casters.

If you assume that Verant is making these changes with the PoP mob design in mind (as they should be), then people are getting what they have been asking for since Velious release: Mobs with less hp, less CH rotation dependancy, less reliability on CH, etc.

Now I dont understand the monk nerf and it pisses me off, but if you have any faith in verant (at this point you probably shouldnt), maybe the rest of the changes wont be so bad. Time will tell...

*i just jumped into this thread now and dont feel like reading the back pages, so dont h8te if i missed something or a similar post*

Blowth

Arcius

10-15-2002, 08:22 PM

It's because Zyklan MTs Emperor and Aten Ha Ra :|

Torrid

10-16-2002, 04:26 AM

So sick of hearing this stupid whining from uninformed people.

Mage DD is the same as any other DD except for most wizard ice and fire spells, which have a mere -10 resist added to them. Stop whining about resists, everyone gets them.

Mages pets are used on most raids I've been on. They don't aggro mobs anymore, so learn to controll them and you won't have a problem unless mobs are aoeing all the time.

At the absolute worst, all the mod rod nerf would do is require you to guild a few more clerics, and put necros in their group instead of the wizard group. Sorry Hoss haters, we will still be killing shit.

High end monks tanked WAY too good. I'm sorry, but a LEATHER class should not tank better than a PLATE class. Hello? common sense here?

And yes, I'm glad they nerfed my class. Manaburning that shit like that was broken.

Arcius

10-16-2002, 06:03 AM

Stop whining about resists, everyone gets them.

You have a larger selection of spells. While you can switch to MR or CR and do good damage when something is FR, I switch to my 825 MR nuke that takes the same time to cast and more mana.

Other than that, there is no difference. Being limited to an 825 nuke on almost every non-boss (and some of the bosses as well) is not good. Some places are fine, but mages will never have the versatility you do. There is absolutely no reason for any guild to go look for more mages right now. Why not guild a wizard who outdamages everyone by tens of thousands of hitpoints on every boss? Nerf Wizards :|

Pets? Pets are 20-25 dps on a good boss. My only problem with pets is their level which cause them to miss 80% of the time. I'm happy with pets right now, if I can nuke.

They should have just taken mod rods out, completely.

Torrid

10-16-2002, 08:13 AM

25 DPS? thats about my warrior's DPS on some of the high AC crap, heh.

You can't seriously compare wizards chewing down serveral rods per minute and a personal necro + healer to anyone else. I'm hearing tons of rogue whining too. What pisses me off is that rogues probably outdamage wizards w/o this support. In fact I'm very sure of it on at least some encounters. I already know rogues chew through VT trash 3 times better than me. Heck my warrior has more DPS now on those. At least I get exp in ssrae.

W/o mod rods, all the matters is ratio. By your own admission, your pet would be doing somewhere around 40k to aten. Now, with aten, I found MR to work the best. Which means our resist % would be the same. So you'd be doing about 80% my damage with spells alone. Although I have spell fury mastery 3, so I guess it would be a bit lower. Anyways I think you drasticaly underestimate your class.

And last but not least, I use ice on only ONE uber mob: AoW. EVERYTHING in VT or Ssrae is either fire or mr (usually fire), and you have both. Ice is seriously starting to suck. And I'm getting annoyed that I need resist debuffs to even come close to melee damage in many situations. Oh, lets not forget mages can debuff too :P

Arcius

10-16-2002, 09:00 AM

You can't seriously compare wizards chewing down serveral rods per minute

Why are wizards doing 120k damage to a boss without rods?

And when I parse my pet's dps I need others hits on. I see the warriors and they are all at least double my pet's dps. So it's not like a pet by itself is insanely overpowered. Just wizards :p

Arcius

10-16-2002, 09:02 AM

And no, my pet doesn't do 20-25 dps vs. Aten. It's was around 8-12 dps on Aten last time I checked /shrug

Karendra

10-16-2002, 10:24 AM

they do 120k if we tak longer then normal to kill them:)

Ktul

10-16-2002, 12:20 PM

"Which means our resist % would be the same. So you'd be doing about 80% my damage with spells alone."

Arcius care to tell us how much damage you did with non stop nuking vs wizzies last time in VT? I think it was like 17% damage. Im not against removal of rods but I'd like us to nuke at least HALF as good as a wizzie =|

Arcius

10-16-2002, 12:45 PM

I'm too embaressed to say =\

It was only 20-25k less on Termariel, but it got a lot worse on Mini-Aten. I was only there for 50% of Aten.

Karen - Aten took longer to kill because I wasn't rodding the wizards. This is their normal damage with clicks / nukes.

Karendra

10-16-2002, 02:58 PM

dont you have click bewts?:/

Mkai

10-16-2002, 04:08 PM

Well, I guess comparing Mage/Wiz spell and overall is all good, except for 1 thing. They follow completely different rules.

There are some mobs that the wizzy fire DD will be 100% resisted 100% of the time, while a mage fire DD will work.
Mage nukes are funny that way.

I highlyu doubt that without mod rod, wizards dps will be even close to rogue dps w/o having 2-3 necro feed the wizzy. I guess we'll see.

Eomer

10-16-2002, 04:18 PM

Perhaps over a long term 10+ minute fight. However, it looks like VI is trying to cut down on that, so that may help Wizzies out in that respect. Nukers in general, really.

Torrid

10-16-2002, 07:37 PM

Geez, this thread is full of CRACK SMOKERS.

First of all, most of our warriors have bane weapons, so thats why they are doing so much more than your pets.

Second of all, mage DD and wizard DD resist % is almost identical. If a mage can hit it, so can wizards and vice versa.

And lastly, this patch nerfed the FUCK out of wizards. Why? Mob ac was severely cut. We are now bitches to melee once again. To make it worse, concussion is resistable and by the time we have a strong aggro lock on the MT, the mob will be a quarter dead.

Oh, and lets not forget the ancient Mage nuke that rivals ice spear in ratio. This spell alone will make your damage very close to ours. The wiz ancient is ice based, and ice sucks.

Eomer

10-16-2002, 07:39 PM

Whoa, they lowered mob AC along with HP? Didn't it occur to them that casters might get a little miffed if suddenly melees started doing a ton more damage?

Arcius

10-16-2002, 07:58 PM

What? No, actually there was only one bane weapon in the guild when I parsed pet last.

My point was not that my spells are resisted more, it's that you have more selection. If Sunstrike doesn't work, you use Elnericks or Solists. If Ancient:Shock of Sun doesn't work, I use my 825 shock of steel nuke. That's a big difference to me.

Emptiness

10-17-2002, 04:30 AM

Originally posted by Torrid
Oh, and lets not forget the ancient Mage nuke that rivals ice spear in ratio. This spell alone will make your damage very close to ours. The wiz ancient is ice based, and ice sucks.

That Ancient spell is sold in the bazaar right? :rolleyes:

Torrid

10-17-2002, 05:21 AM

That Ancient spell is sold in the bazaar right?

A) I mentioned this as an afterthought, not my main argument

B) We're talking about the high end game, comparing EER/GSS and the like, not you newbie mages that get a rush out of owning UP. Garrison's isn't sold in bazaar either, now is it?

C) That spell has a damage per mana ratio of 4.035. GSS has a ratio of 3.888. Once you get this spell, you will be a wizard with the best pet in the game in many situations. Nice balance there.

If Sunstrike doesn't work, you use Elnericks or Solists

I don't use solist on anything except exp mobs and AoW. Dunno how many times I have to repeat that...

I use fire like 90% of the time on uber mobs. I dunno why, but verant has a hard on for fire.

So I guess wizards own mages on AoW. Thats just reason enough right there to never guild another mage! Man they blow

Arcius

10-17-2002, 06:36 AM

Torrid

10-17-2002, 07:38 AM

I missed the ice comment, sorry if you had to repeat it once.

Wizards don't suck. Mages don't suck. Wizards WERE outdamaging mages (by a lot).

I don't think my spells are resisted more often than yours. Of course, I could be wrong. Wizards were hitting Seru for full damage with Garrison's while most of my nukes were under 400 using my Ancient with RSD and Malo in. I don't think the -10 is really much of a difference, but I don't know. I never even brought up your spells being resisted less / more / the same because I didn't think that they were.

I'll return to my crack now.

Key word: WERE. Because you were making rods instead of nuking, and wizards had 3 classes supporting them. That damage is (was) not done by the wizard alone. If you make even a single rod that isn't for yourself, you are skewing the data in the wizard's favor.

Seru resists wizards too, and rather badly. I'm not stupid though, that -10 actually makes a difference in this case, but its not huge by any means. Also it may be my imagination, but crits tend to hit for full more often than non-crits...

And that crack line was mostly for the other people :D

Arcius

10-17-2002, 07:51 AM

Because you were making rods instead of nuking

I meant last Termariel / Mini Aten (and Aten too, of course..but I 10k'd at the start). There were 0 wizard rods and I nuked the whole time.

I'm still going to return to my crack!

mmm

Ktul

10-17-2002, 11:50 AM

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!

http://pub6.ezboard.com/fthemagicianstowergeneral.showMessage?topicID=7282 .topic

Emptiness

10-17-2002, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by Torrid

B) We're talking about the high end game, comparing EER/GSS and the like, not you newbie mages that get a rush out of owning UP. Garrison's isn't sold in bazaar either, now is it?

Damn you're cool...and really good at flaming too. :rolleyes:

Lonskils

10-18-2002, 08:31 AM

I think that Torrid doesn't know you Empti, but his arguement is still viable, they were talking end game (SoL) spellines and comparing them none of which are sold in the bazaar btw so slow down the flame wagon.

~Lons

Ktul

10-18-2002, 01:31 PM

More the tone lons, you're telling the wrong person to stop flames!

Arcius

10-18-2002, 05:06 PM

Look again, Ktul. They lowered the bolt damage a lot and changed Sun Vortex (level 65) to evocation :(

Nuuk

10-18-2002, 08:12 PM

HAHAHAHAHAHA

:D

Torrid is right, Huge Nerf!! Torrid you crack me up!! Your patience is unreal..

Hate to let everyone in on this, but Necro's are the biggest dmg dealer in town! Period! End of story!!

They can out dmg me by 10-20% on boss type fights.. And they are more versatile then other casting classes by alot.

brb with my necro.......

Torrid

10-19-2002, 06:33 AM

... said the wizard with one of the largest mana pools on any server, garrison's, ancient concussion, FT 15, and has been eating rods and mana fed since velious.

Btw correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't melee get the kill on the last emp?

Nuuk

10-19-2002, 11:51 AM

:rolleyes:

I have FT14. Rinna was the first wiz in Hoss to FT15 when I had FT10.

If the fights in POP are short, then wizards will be more effective.

I was making a joke mainly, but Aalenu claims she did 145k+ to Aten. This is more then any single wizard did last Aten fight with no Rods, thats all I was saying sheesh. All the wizards did over 100k. I have no clue how much melee dmg is done on an aten fight by any single class.

I do not really care, I love my wizard and always have unlike some people.

People need to relax..