"First In Force" - Definition please

[Grazel_VE]

Let's work out a definition of "First in Force". There are several mobs that fall in this category.

As a suggestion, FIF should require both

- Having a killing force in the zone, and within striking distance.
- Having the mob under pull, or be clearing its guards.

[Yendii]

Hello all. New to the forum and i'm already throwing my 2 cp in, you're going to love me :D

My first impression is that this is an unnecessary layer of bureaucracy. Next we would need to define killing force. Does a small group figthing towards a mob with the intent to CoH more people count as a killing force? Or should another guild be able to zone in with sufficient numbers (another term that would need to be defined and would vary between the guilds) to kill the mob and say "Get lost you guys, you don't have the numbers to kill it and we do, so IGB rules say you must yield". It seems to me that things like this get worked out well enough in game. Like the old saying "if it ain't broke don't fix it".

[Enki_VE]

Yendii,

A recent problem actually prompted Grazel to post here, as such I think making sure we all agree on what constitutes FIF is a useful discussion.

Here's an example:

Guild A and B both have people in Iceclad. Guild A has a druid and a warrior, guild B has a rogue.

Guild A's druid tracks lodizal and engages it with the help fo the warrior. Both take a few hits and start kiting the mob. They summon help from their guild.

Guild B's rogue notices that Lodizal is up and summons help from his guild.

Guild A gets about 12 people in zone - more than enough - and tells the druid to bring over the mob.

Guild B gets a group in and charges the mob, getting to it before the druid kites it in. Guild B gets the kill.

Guild A and Guild B proceed to start a pissing match. Everyone gets angry, nobody has any fun.

Now, it is clear that this situation is a difficult one. On the one hand, one could argue that Guild A was ready for the mob, was the first one to agro it, and was kiting it. On the other hand, one could argue that Guild B was the first one to actually put a group on the mob fighting it seriously.

I don't use this example to ask for any sort of judgement of whether A or B was right - I merely use it because I think it makes it clear that having a clear, universally agreed upon set of FIF rules would avoid this sort of confusion.

One possible FIF doctrine would be: "Whoever actually gets a group of people fighting the mob (not kiting) first, and keeps a group engaged on it, gets the mob. All others should piss off."

Another possible FIF doctrine would be: "Whoever has a group that is ready to take on the mob in-zone, and has the mob engaged (kiting or not), or is clearing to the mob, gets the mob. All others should piss off."

I think the question is important because there are several mobs that drop some decent loots where this matters. Examples include Lodizal, Venril Sathir, and Faydedar. I know of incidents in the past involving each of these mobs and probably every guild here.

Having a clear FIF rule, that each of us would then communicate to our members, would help to avoid such problems. My goal here as an IGB rep is to figure out the best way to maximize the fun of the people in my guild. I think races and pissing matches are not fun, so if I can think of ways to avoid them, I do it. Thus, I think this discussion is a good one to have.

My $0.02 - I think that once a guild has the mob engaged (kiting or not) or is clearing to the mob, *and* has a group or groups in-zone that can credibly kill the mob, they should get the mob. I prefer this alternative because it reduces the problems associated with leapfrogging each other or racing towards a mob.

[Selice-ML]

LOL Welcome to the Asylum, Yendii

[Baramos1]

I hate the turtle.

[Rezz]

Hrm, to be honest, this doesn't come up that often, and probably won't imo. On matters of the bastard turtle, most guilds tend to let people get antsy and jump the gun, attack while unprepared, wait till the turtle is no longer enagaged, and then kill it if they are able. There are very few instances where a guild would steal a kited mob, and even less in recent memory. Most instances are worked out during the fighting, or kiting, or gathering of forces stages. If it looks like guild a can kill it, guild b won't even bother coming 9/10ths the time. But in the same breath, it's a very individual basis that a guild would look like it's able to kill something. Take Hoss and Kelorek`Dar. I saw 7 members of Hoss in CS, said "they might be passing through" and asked a few guildmates to show up to whack the turtle. When the number grew to 12 and I saw them on the beach and prepping, I realized they did intend to kill the mob, told the guild it was taken and went about what I was doing beforehand. If it was 12 members of Bakers of Tunare, I would have laughed and called my guild in anyway. The term "force" when used as a general term doesn't relate to every guild the same way. What Hoss may consider a force I might not. How am I to judge what each guild feels they are personally capable of? More importantly, who are We to judge what we feel each guild is capable of? Only the officers and members of the respective guilds can effectively call wether they are there in force or not. If 12 VE members showed up at Lodizal, do I know that VE can kill Lodizal with 12? What if 4 members of L`malla showed up simultaneously and started buffing. Would VE respect our force as being in FiF?

Laying out generalized rules to this will only lead to bickering over what constitutes a killing force, instead of who was kiting first. Why take unneccessary effort to change one form of arguement into another? It's still argueing.

*shrug* on the statement of clearing, it's too broad, and nobody is gonna take a guild seriously if they are clearing to the Ghoul Lord from zone in instead of putting on IVU. To me, using faction or lack of the appropriate methods to skip the clearing phase as the reasons why a mob is claimed but nobody is around is a little silly. if there is a problem where one guild is constantly not getting the kills due to these reasons, either that guild works something out (Hoss with Keldor. Faction prevents 2 min run in kills with him, so they ask for him to be left up when they do tormax, and the other guilds respect this) or takes the time to ensure that they set these methods up. In the end, I still think broad based rules on these type of engagements would be pointless and only lead down a different avenue of bickering. Oh, and nothing against any guilds I've mentioned here, I've merely referenced you in what I would consider applicable positions. My apologies if being used as references offends you. =)

[Grazel_VE]

I see a post with 100 questions, no solutions, and a dozen excuses to do nothing. Maybe I should post a huge flame so you know its a serious issue.

[Thanatoz]

Grazel what do you want as an answer. Lodi is a FFA mob. IG and VE were both in CS at the same time. Kiting a mob does not in my book qualify as engaging. All it is, is a cheap tactic that benefits a few classes. Luxar was camping Lodi too. Just because a VE druid starts kiting the mob to lay claim on the mob while his guild moves to CS, doesnt qualify as engaged.

Its a shitty situation. Trust me when I say nobody wins in that type of situation. Im sorry you feel cheated.

[Baramos1]

I think the only thing that can be said about the Turtle is that someone is going to get pissed off, no matter what, and create problems for the officers of the guilds.

If it's not the issue of KS'ing by other guilds, it's the issue of where the loot goes, in your own guild.

I don't really see any solution to this FFA mob. He's kind of like Quillmane, except much more popular.

I hate the Turtle.

Baramos

[Decadance]

kiting does not = engaged.

and just to clarify, if its just a serious issue to you, which from reading the posts it just seems serious to you, then it isn't really serious at all, just upseting.

The hoss/ml sleepers tomb issue is quite serious in comparission, as 2 different people feel slighted.

I'm sorry it didn't work to your advantage but don't mistake a serious issue from a merely upseting one.

[Quintall_ML]

Speaking from the various situations surrounding the turtle, there's three things to be said here:

1) The Turtle SUCKS!

2) Prior incidents have proven that first engagement, usually by someone there who was camping it kiting it, should be left alone. Anything else, like trying to strip the mob or other wise get the kill, has time and time again resulted in flamewars at least as rough as that ML/Hoss one we all just witnessed, and in at least one case, suspension(s). Treat it like the AC in SRo, where anyone other than the person(s) with first engagement killing it is a KS, since that's the history the guides/GMs have with it.

3) THE TURTLE SUCKS!

[Yendii]

Usualy the person camping Lod either wants the shell or wants the map piece. Numerous times I've seen my guildmates work out deals with other people camping the turtle. They end up helping each other instead of trying to KS or lay claim and they both walk away happy.

I can remember another instance with VS Remains. One of our druids was with a group in KC and needed the epic piece off him. ML also had a group with a druid who needed the piece. We both ran to the prep area as quickly as we could without training ourselves and arrived at pretty much the same time. The remains drop 2 pieces, I'm sure both of our guilds could have looted the other piece to multi with another guildmate. We could have called a GM to make us /random or we could have tried KSing each other. Can you guess what we did? We worked together and gave one piece to the ML druid and one piece to our druid. Everyone walked away happy.

Of course we've had huge arguments over spawns chalked full of flames, threats, and acting ridiculous but I've noticed something. Mobs tend to respawn and there is always another chance to get what you were after.

You can make all the rules you want but it won't solve the problem. Why not try /petition? It will do about as much good.

[Grazel_VE]

Very well then, I'll drop the subject. Its clear noone wants to try solving anything until after the huge incidents occur and half the server is pissed off.

Sorry for trying to be proactive.

Have a nice day.

[Blambil_VE]

While trying to retain some sense of seeking a solution, let me repeat something Quintall said.

---

"Prior incidents have proven that first engagement, usually by someone there who was camping it kiting it, should be left alone.

Anything else, like trying to strip the mob or other wise get the kill, has time and time again resulted in flamewars at least as rough as that ML/Hoss one we all just witnessed, and in at least one case, suspension(s).

Treat it like the AC in SRo, where anyone other than the person(s) with first engagement killing it is a KS, since that's the history the guides/GMs have with it. "

---

I would suggest for future engagements we all adopt this guideline, since Quintall is correct, this is what the GM's have to say, and the foundation GM's will rule upon in contested mob situations.

Since we, as officers, have a governing role in the policies of our respective guilds, if the word comes down from the officers the guild will respect these guidelines, it will have an effect on our members.

VE will follow these guidelines. I hope the rest of the IGB members will do the same.