I think this deserves it's own thread rather than being a separate conversation in the EQ1/F2P thread.
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I think this deserves it's own thread rather than being a separate conversation in the EQ1/F2P thread.
http://www.twitch.tv/everquestnext
Show's starting
Ok seriously, enough of the finger painting.
It's cool and shit, but I really think this has gone on long enough.
P.S. At least we know that the guy from America's Got Talent last season can still get gigs here and there.
Best comment I've heard yet, "So this is what he meant by 'sandbox' ? Brilliant!".
Looks pretty amazing actually.
Well, that was pretty good. I think they hyped it too much, but the game looks great. If they can execute on their ideas I think this could be something special.
I have very mixed feelings. A lot, or most, of the project 1999 players do not like it.
I DO NOT like the art style, which basically screams World of Warcraft. Cartoon graphics were novel and fun when WoW was the first to do it in 2004. Now that everybody does it, it's lame. I would much rather they had gone with something like Black Desert or Guild Wars 2, which are gorgeous.
The combat looked something like WoW meets Diablo. Wizard blink, wizard AoE death orbs, warrior whirlwind, warrior charge. Those are all iconic abilities from Blizzard titles. Killing mobs that die in one hit with AoE abilities en mass is pretty much the opposite of what I wanted to see and sure as hell ain't EQ.
I loved Guild War 2's music, so EQN's music could be great (same composer); I just wish the theme sounded EQish instead of generic fantasy. Of course other than the lore, nothing SOE has done in EQ2, EQN, or even recently in EQ1 has anything to do with classic EQ, so it doesn't surprise me that they wouldn't think to compose music that sounded at least a little like the old theme.
The good stuff, IMO, was all non-visual.
Huge world with long travel times? BIG BIG plus for me.
Dramatically improved AI with monster goals and behaviors is also long overdue and extremely welcome.
One-time very long duration public quests with world altering permanence is huge if done well.
Each server becoming a unique place as a result of the outcome of said 'rallying calls' is also really awesome.
The crafting stuff sounds neat.
Earning your spells and abilities via traveling the world and completing involved quests is great.
Armor not being loaded with tons of +gooder is great.
An involved faction system is great.
The entire world being a destructible environment is technologically very impressive. I've been waiting for a game with alterable terrain like WURM for a long time, and they not only did that but one-upped minecraft. The big problem I have with it though, is that they went and said that the world would 'heal' itself so how permanent your actions to the terrain are is still a question at this point. Non-permanence defeats the purpose of having destructibility to begin with as far as I am concerned, and makes it a non-sandbox. All terrain modifications should be permanent, but much harder to accomplish. You shouldn't destroy everything by hitting your attack button. If people dig lots of holes just to dig holes, which should take a long ass time, then give them -nature faction and have animals hunt them down and shit. Or make them a criminal for digging holes on royal land or for destruction of royal property. Have a weather system to smooth out terrain over the long term, but the terrain should still be depressed to some degree even after rain smooths it out. Just because the world is destructible doesn't mean you should make it one big voxel destruction orgy.
A few other comments worried me if true. Raid sizes being limited to 'around 24 players' would be dumb. I wouldn't like the multiclassing if it were just like hitting a button and you instantly switched from warrior to cleric like a talent switch. How much of the game being instanced is a HUGE concern for me. I *LOATHE* instancing of any kind, and I've heard mention of it being used in a limited form. And of course the f2p concern-- ANY kind of shop is a form of pay to win and hurts the game and SOE loves it.
It looks really cool to me. The parkour running seems a little silly on the surface, but hey spice up whatever you can because I don't think anything is more boring than running in a straight line for 20 minutes. Honestly the part that had me the most interested was the EQ Next: Landmark stuff. It seems like their content creation and in game editor tools are very powerful so players will be able to make some really great things. I love getting the community involved, because many times they take greater care than the devs are given time for and it can result in some really great stuff. Plus player generated content is pretty much the holy grail of MMORPG development and if they can pull this off they may actually have a groundbreaking (literally) game here.
From the panels they're talking about having only 8 abilities/spells usable at a time. Kinda like old EQ. This also limits the multi-classing issue. You will not be able to be a full fledged cleric and rogue at the same time, but you will be able to mix and match both class' skills in a limited way. You are also limited by your base class in that of those 8 abilities, some are reserved for offense, or defense, or utility. So, you won't be able to slot all offensive abilities in your slots. Sounds like they're trying to limit what you can do in terms of classes. To me it seems like an alternative to making an alt. Instead of making another character, you're just making your main character another class, and leveling that secondary class up. It also seems like they're really early on in development and really don't know exactly what they are going to do though. A lot of this is all talk still it seems and who knows how they will actually implement all the complexities. They did say they are getting rid of the trinity and that the ai in combat will be very different from what we are use to. No more taunt and no more mob sticking to one player while 20 others smack it from behind. In the example they gave the mob would attack whoever is doing the most damage or most harm to it so if a healer is healing, they will go after the healer. They also said nobody is going to be sitting around, watching a health bar and hitting CHeal every few seconds. Everyone will have to participate. I don't know how this will all work and how they will implement all this with the storybricks ai but it should be interesting if the devs can pull it off.
I have to say the lighting was very impressive and sorry Torrin, when you go all realistic, to me at least, you get into that something just doesn't seem right to me, thing. They move different than wow, the web cam thing I logged into eq2 and checked out and it looks pretty neat. I'm sick to freaking death of every mmo out there right now. Hopefully if Sony doesn't get it right it will spark someone else to do it right after them. At least they are trying something new instead of the same ole shit.
Hmm interesting
The 'world's largest sandbox game'... with everything Bind on Pickup because droppable items 'ruin the economy'.
Does not compute
And another thing, depending on how fast the world heals itself I can see what they would do that. Why have a group of griefing fucking assholes running around blasting and destroying shit willy nilly for folks that come after them? Oh you need to get to that zone in? We dug a whole to the level 80 dungeon right before you get to the level 12 dungeon. Yeah no thanks. I'm pretty sure it will heal like Rift and while that may be a little fast, it would still add a dynamic to the game.
Joey McNegative checking in.
Do not like the art style, giant armor models ala WoW, etc. The movement and combat seems more like a platformer than a RPG.
I just don't get it really. People's complaints with MMORPGS isn't that they're the same old D&D-style game, lacking cool twitchy combat systems, cheesy bells and whistles, multiclassing etc. The popularity of emus like p99, progression servers, and eqmac should demonstrate that the complaint is that they're too focused on the bells and whistles and have gone too far away from the D&D-style MUDs and classic EQ. Vanguard was a near miss (thanks Sony) but EQNext looks way off the mark.
If there's instancing it means that Sony really hasn't been listening at all... at least not to the people still playing their games.
I'm not defending the decisions made on EQNext here... but, if you add up the number of players who play p99, progression servers, and eqmac - do you think that number combined (and then doubled or tripled) is a large enough audience to spend $30-50 million dollars development investment?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lothbah
Personally, I would love nothing more than for SOE to put a programmer and a couple of artists in a back closet somewhere who could take original EverQuest and modernize it (basically making it a seamless world on a modern 3D engine with updated art). Yet keeping the original gameplay, difficulty, rules, etc. Unfortunately, it would probably take a larger team than that to pull off, so I doubt SOE would even be willing to invest the modest $500,000 to $1,000,000 a project like that would require.
Regarding EQN, the main item that has put me off so far is the combat systems that they have shown so far. Though based on what has been shown, I really don't believe we have seen anything more than a glorified tech demo - so I still have some hope that the gameplay/combat will be less action/button-smashing (great for console... meh for PC), and more traditional RPG that maintains some resemblance to the group/role trinity.
In my opinion, it's going to be a LONG time before this game is released (unless it's released before it's ready), I would estimate late 2014 for beta at the earliest with 3rd quarter 2015 as a realistic launch window. Much will change, and we can only hope that the pendulum swings back towards what made EQ special to all of us. But keep in mind, whatever they release will need to appeal to a much larger market than original EQ, and face it, we're not their target demographic anymore.
Hehe.. that number doesn't even come close to our lowest populated EQ1 server (other than EQ Mac, and the PVP servers).
As for the idea of an original EQ in a new engine.. there's a few of us on the EQ team who want it too. I can't say any more than that.
Funny note. Blizzard scrapped Titan because of what they saw in our demo at E3 (yeah.. someone from Blizz snuck in). That's not hyperbole. It's fact.
Blizzard couldn't come up with something original if their lives depended on it. They are sellouts and have long since given up the title as the standard to beat. They are a joke now. If they had any sense, they would develop tools for third party designers instead of wasting all that engineering talent they have before they all jump ship.
That's a bullshit argument for any number of reasons. P99 and eqmac are basically hack jobs (unless you run a mac for al'kabor) so anybody playing those are going to be pirating the client and downloading custom dlls just to run the game. The servers get no advertising beyond word of mouth. The clients are static and a decade old. The servers are old and top heavy. (high level players wtih full raid gear) They could be taken down at any time. The entire game was spoiled many years ago. The emus won't get new players like a spiritual successor would. The market cap isn't two or three times, it's 20 or 30 times the current users, minimum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andaas
Let me ask you this: how many people were playing the DOS x-com 1 before the remake? How was that any indicator of success? Turns out people like hard games after all, because it did well, even if it was a simplified remake.
I find it astonishing how Sony just ABANDONED EverQuest like they did. They act like EQ1 was the greatest game ever, with 'how EverQuest changed our lives!' stories, but nothing they've done in a decade has had anything to do with classic EQ beyond reusing some of the lore. Nothing. There is no eq1 successor and nobody ever tried to make one. SOE is run by hypocrites.
I keep waiting for an eq1 clone open source project to start, because that's the only way we'll get one. The problem, as always, is the art assets. Artists need to get on the copyleft bandwagon.
I think this game is not very far along at all. However, their presentation does have me interested. I don't like some of the things they're saying, but I realize that everything is very nebulous and it is pretty obvious they themselves do not know what they are going to do in many instances. Its a lot of ideas and theories, but I doubt they have anything that they could sit down and show us yet. If they did I think they would have during the presentation. Instead they got 2 characters blowing things up and a few mobs that sat around doing nothing, aside from the one boss, that was controlled by another developer.
However, I do have a game I am anticipating now. Nothing else has really caught my interest in many years. Hopefully, this will be the game that gets me playing again. Although, a modernized original EQ would be amazing I think, to some of us at least =) Keep pushing for it Eli!
I give you that Torrid, yes, there would be far more interest than the populations of those 3 examples combined. Though I still can't fathom interest beyond 40-50 thousand players, and that's an aggressive estimate; and many of those (probably 60-70%) would be hit-and-run types who pick up the game to see what the upgraded world looks like and how it plays - they *might* spend $20-25 on a digital download. So given those numbers, at a million dollar investment, you're almost break-even (which given a decent F2P model, could generate some revenue).Quote:
Originally Posted by Torrid
Elid: I say get approval from the top brass to run a $2 million dollar Kickstarter campaign and see what happens. ;)
If EQ 1 were put into an updated engine and made seemless (No loading into zones) I'd have no issue with it at all. It would be just as frustrating and awesome as it was when I started playing it in 2001 and for the life of me I don't understand why they haven't done that. What it is now is a mess of new old and older ideas from one zone to another in the same engine that makes it harder to even play the game than necessary. I loaded up Lons last year and could hardly walk without going wtf???? I would go back to everquest in a heart beat if they'd update the graphics and engine. The lore, story, and game was fine. The world just moved passed the graphics and engine. People want to have a reason to update their computers to see their games in awesome resolution and faster play. EQ looks and plays the same on a Pent II as it does on an i7 and fuck that.
I'm glad you have so much fun playing on the p99 server Torrin, but the rest of us would rather not have to put up with the old graphics and seriously crappy engine in comparison to the more modern yet far to easy games.
I will say I've been enjoying playing Rift of late. While there are way to many quests... you do not breeze through the levels. I do wish companies would stop making multi classing though. I'm sick of hybreds and other classes that can go from dps to healing to tanking with a click of a button. That was what was great about eq. You rolled your toon, you played your toon, if you didn't like what your toon could do. You rerolled. You didn't whine to the devs that you couldn't dps as great as a class whose job was to dps when you had the option to heal as well. You fucking did what your class fucking did well. Not cry about it. To me that is what killed WoW for me. Mages/Locks/Rogs/Hunters were dps. No respec made them able to really do anything else other than make dpsing easier for a situation. Yet Pallys/Druids/Wars/Priests/Shaman could spec to dps/tank/heal/support/ It got to the point that it was like why bother? It was never like that in EQ. You were either gonna be dps/support/tank/heal and not some mishmash of all 4 in every class.
Oh, and you call it EverQuest: Beginnings (or Begins). That will make everyone realize it's a reboot and people will fall all over themselves to give you $$$$.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andaas
And yes, I'd like a royalty when you use that name.
Or maybe.. Everquest: Zero.
I was a huge fan of the graphics in Vanguard and was upset that game went nowhere fast. I'm definitely on the anti-cartoonish boat. I hope they get this right.
I'd actually prefer somewhere in the middle. I'd prefer less stylized, but not hyper-realistic either. They look and feel they're going for is for VERY specific reasons, and with the NPC interaction systems they have in place, it should make for a very engaging experience, and feel kind of like you're IN a pixar world, instead of just watching a movie. At least that's the impression I'm getting.
I considered :Zero also; but that would get shortened to EQZ... and then everyone will think it's a zombie apocalypse version of Norrath.
You're falling into the same trap I hear on rerolled all the time. You're basically saying 'I wouldn't play that game so nobody would.'Quote:
Originally Posted by Andaas
EverQuest was nicknamed 'EverCrack'. How does WoW existing stop making EQ fun? Does modern WoW make classic WoW unfun too? I suppose every game right now is boring, we just don't know it yet. LoL? What a snoozefest man.
If hard games don't sell, then why does EVE have more subs than ever after 10 years? EVE has more subs than EQ2 ever did and tied EQ1's record high at over half a million subscriptions-- this during the f2p rage that is currently plaguing the industry. The trend shows no signs of declining, either. If WoWifying your game is required to sell it, then why did EQ2 bomb so hard?
There is currently a need for a game with forced cooperation/grouping, no instancing, large raids, resource management/downtime, long levels, hard class roles, non-formulaic loot, quests without exp, dark nights/weather/atmosphere, etc. You'd be a fool to not make that and instead make WoW clone #34719.
I *would* play that game though. I'm just saying that there will be far more drive-by players who play for 2-3 weeks.
But what I'd *really* like to play is something that breaks ground like EQ did in '99 (the Quake+RPG concept added into the early MMO) - so for today, it would probably need along the lines of what EQN is attempting (ever-changing world; simulated living AI that modifies it's behavior based on repeated player activity, etc.); that is also hard/difficult (e.g., requires grouping).
Nobody will make that game though - so my only hope is that someone can make that game and release realms that include varied difficulty tiers. There can be the WoW "My First MMO" tier, where there are no death penalties except running back to your corpse for a small repair impact with an open world that is mostly soloable. Then provide at least one additional difficulty, such as an original EQ style tier (experience loss on death; respawn naked on death, must recover body to regain items; most open world enemies will beat you to within a hair of death, if not outright kill you without some skill/plan. Possibly even a 3rd difficulty taking EQ style to a perma-death level (you die, you lose everything).
It wouldn't really require too much additional effort - simply tune the game to the EQ difficulty and add a general -25% (HP/Damage output) to all enemies in the WoW version and change the death penalty rules.
Hell, you can even monetize the game providing the WoW difficulty as your F2P version with hard progression gates; allowing the EQ difficulty to be the intended experience for players who buy into a monthly subscription.
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by Torrid
As to F2P being a plague, you should see the blowback on the temerity and eqmac boards. F2P and the PC hack have turned al'Kabor into a server overrun by hackers trainers and griefers on level 1 throwaway accounts, as well as huge box armies.
I truly miss the challenge that EQ was , if this offers that I'm sure there will be like minded people that will play. However does that make it a money maker which at the end of the day all that's what contrlos what is produced who knows
My opinion is, a niche game with 100k subs, that came in with a low budget, with a small team, can not only be profitable, but VERY profitable, and fun to play. The asian MMO people have been doing that for awhile. You build a lot of small games, and if one gains a following, you develop the shit out of it to try and grab a bigger audience. The end result is you don't spend hundreds of millions of dollars and HOPE you did the right thing.
I liken it to walking into a casino with your entire life savings, and putting it on 1 number on the Roulette table. You MIGHT win, but more likely you're just going to go broke in a hurry.
Why don't we just do a kickstarter and make the fucking game ourselves? Hoss has more coders and developers in it than any other guild I've ever known.
Why can't they fucking promote you some more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elidroth
Give me some goddamn models with textures and animations and I'm all in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonskils
It brought me too, so it can't be all bad!Quote:
Originally Posted by Lothbah
Most of the griefing seemed to be against Malignant anyway. And supposedly Gaeldar has a rich daddy so subs won't stop him :highly_amused: Shakerpaging the entire zone of PoValor is the bigger problem if you ask me. They should disable it in just that zone somehow. Then they'll have to earn their bots instead of getting 46-60 in 90 minutes.
I need to finish my videos before they ban PC hack users.
Yeah.. art assets would be a HUGE pain in the ass. People also need to be in the same place to have any cohesion in design and development of the project. You just can't do a project in this scope via message board posting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Torrid
As for me running a game? Who knows. As I said, there are a few people here who want to pitch something like an MMO Dark Souls in the EQ universe. We'll see.
If the project goal is to create a classic EQ clone though, then the design is already pretty much finalized. The server side of things has already been duplicated in multiple projects. (p99, eqc) Middleware solutions could be used to greatly accelerate client development. (i.e. Unity, or Ogre3D for the MIT license)
Open sourcing games is much more troublesome than other kinds of software because determining which are the best solutions is entirely subjective, but if you just set out to clone an existing game, then that problem goes away.
Plus with white board and mass meeting and collaboration software, you could be sitting miles apart and still talk to each other as if you were in the same office. I once recorded an entire album with 4 other people doing their parts and uploading the parts to a collaboration cloud folder and mixing it down. You do not have to be sitting in the same damn room as someone to bounce ideas.
We would need an engine and models to start with and go from there. I don't want to clone it, I want to make the game at it's core the clone, but I want a better engine and models.
I agree that online collaboration has improved a ton over the past few years, though I still think developing a game with a remote team would create a lot of challenges.
OK.. I'll be blunt then.
There is a small group of us here at SOE that is currently putting together a pitch doc for an unapologetic, hardcore game set in the EQ universe. At this phase, nobody knows we're doing it outside of the people involved, but the ultimate goal is to take it to Smed and convince him to give us a team to actually make it happen. The INTENT is a niche game, not a mass appeal, easy mode game. If it happens to take off into big numbers, that's awesome, but we want to make something that is small budget, so 100k or less players is still profitable.
Our reasoning is pretty simple. Demon's Souls, and Dark Souls have shown in very good sales numbers, that not everyone wants things in a simple, casual, easy game to play. There still very much is a desire for a challenging game.
ALL HAIL SKIRT :abnormal: