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http://eq.crgaming.com/viewarticle.asp?Article=4811
I wonder how many will quit after these changes? Personally I never liked the mage- mod-rod phase( that is currently the hip thing with magicians) It's simply not what I envisioned a mage to be doing when I started playing a mage 3 years ago.
http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/news.php
read threw it, before you flame
Fuck these changes. We'll still need to rod, a mage's job will just be more tedious and less helpful.
Oh, and Verant - can I have all those AAs I spent in Quick Summoning, Natural Durability and Earth Form back? You're giving the wizards their points back for Manaburn /shrug
Did they ever get frenzied burnout working? Or is it still useless? I was going to invest in quick summoning before I quit..
The thing that gets me about this nerf is, why do they decide to make these kind of changes 9 months or so after the release?
Clerics are over powered and too much fun to play, nerf them again!
Joshua
aka Sexy Lexi da SUPER gnome!!!
Wow, I actually agree with most of those changes. I always thought the new mod rod was too powerful, it essentially makes mana infinite on a raid. Although they will have to tune the hell out of the game to make up for the changes they are doing.
As far as Manaburn goes, I don't see that being too big of a problem for wizards in high level raiding guilds. Correct me if I am wrong, but you guys could just time it (as long as the wait between isn't too ridiculous) if a number of wizards want to use it on an uber mob?
As far as the CH changes goes, I don't think it changes a whole lot, whether or not tanks will ever need to be healed for 10K. No matter what, EQ will always be balanced around the largest and most efficient heal if mobs are designed to do damage to one primary target. Having CH lower doesn't change it's distinction as the best heal around. Although all these tank shield abilities etc might help break that part of the game up.
You have to admit one thing though: all these changes take balls on the part of the development team.
Hmm once a minute and targetted, I can see how that would be a bit difficult now. Though it just changes things.
Manaburn nerf needed to be done, I'm sure the wizard boards are enraged as it only allowed them to farm millions of plat and not helpful too much on raids. You can have my acrobatics bitches!
And the CH thing isn't a big change at all really.
Not really groundbreaking, but some I'm sure there's the lobby that doesn't really like change whining... as they will about anything when something is taken away.
All of luclin now needs to be changed though heh
;D
Hopefully they will make it more enjoyable for Mages during raids via other means. I know necros never liked the mana xfer thing when they got it in luclin and I never enjoyed it during Luclin.
Atleast they seem to understand as I get from the post.
.................................................. .................................................. .....
We view Magicians as an excellent source of damage, especially with the many pet enhancements that have been made over the past year. To be honest, it is a more than a small shame that their full energies have been viewed as "needed" to be spent, full-time, purely on transferring their mana to others. Magicians are supposed to be the masters of elemental conjuration and highly respected as a damage-dealer, not the masters of mana transferrence.
Well...
You all do not realize it yet maybe, but this will seriously break the game and have the reverse effect of what VI is trying to accomplish.
If these changes were live tonight, we would not have beat the emperor even if he had half as many HP. We would not be able to beat VT.
They state they are trying to bring the game back into balance to make it more skill oriented and less about zerging, but that is exactly what it will mean will be necessary unless they are seriously retuning every single encounter to the appropriate correct level. But what are they going to base this on?? 40 people? 50 people? What level of equipment?? Can you clerics sit on these fights like we used to do? No way in hell with the agro on Luclin mobs. So how will clerics get mana to fight these mobs?
Are they going to give Seru 200K HP? Are they going to have to add AE's and other NPC AE dots the the bosses to compensate for the lack of HP??
Is this doable? Yes I think. But you know how long it will take to accomplish this?? A long time!! To tune every major encounter in the game will take a very long time. So what this means is the game will be broke for a long time and every guild will be brought to a stand still while they do patch after patch and retune every single encounter. Less HP and more strategy? Quicker fights? I'm all for this, but just lowering the HP on every single mob is not gonna do it and Zerging will become very popular again rather fast.
Most of the uber luclin encounters are about endurance, not strategy. Sure the Emp fight and the HP fight are fun and require coordination. Are they going to make every fight like this?? That will take a while!!
I guess we will have to wait and see, but expect that the loot flow will be on short supply for a while till they fix what they are about to break...
Of course, thats just my opinion, I could be wrong!!
Heh I love these people who think manaburn is even remotely useful other than killing 32k hp mobs. Newsflash: its not. 4 casts of EER = my manaburn.
And yes Nuuk, I understood fully what these changes mean to the game immediately. And you are correct. What this will do is make us require a dozen clerics and to get them all 15 FT. At least with that many clerics in rotation, they should be able to sit down.
Verant is not competent enough to tune the encounters to these changes in one patch, period. Half the encounters in the game will be broken for weeks. Guilds without a lot of clerics will be fucked. (hi Hoss)
The funny part is, I agree with all the changes for the most part. Except I'd have simply changed manaburn into something different that is *gasp* useful. The PERFECT solution would be to turn it into a percent based damage spell. Think about it: it would solve two problems at once. Mobs with tons of hp that would be impossible due to the mod rod nerf would suddenly become doable. Its not overpowered because the fights would have to last a certain amount of time at least because of the 1 per minute thing.
I also think mod rods should have like 5 charges, and cost 5 times as much mana to cast. That way a mage doesn't have to keep track of any of that shit. Make one before the fight and youre done.
CH nerf is silly. It changes nothing. Clerics will still rotate exactly as before, except w/o mod rods. How many CHs healed over 7500 hp? not many. If you wanna nerf the spell, nerf it right. Of course you'd have to retune the entire game, but VI pretty much committed itself to doing that anyway.
Had verant had the balls to nerf this shit a long time ago, they would have made it a lot better for everyone. Btw, wheres the nerf for ranger AA archery?
They could make every wizard on every server very happy if they just replaced manaburn with gather mana.
CH nerf isnt really a nerf atm but will be in Pop with lvl 65 warriors with 355sta and another 10% more hp.
The rod nerf wouldnt be bad if most of the luclin fights werent designed with the idea of a large ammount of mana available. Or someone need to explain me how to kill the damn kaas in vt without rods as it is.
Nerfing rods means a whole revamping of luclin encounters which i doubt will be done.
AS for the monk nerf thingy well i think the whole melee damage avoidance/mitigation system needed a revamp not just hit the monks with the nerf stick :/
Part of the changes, Nuuk, was an encounter rebalance, so speculating that we would not be able to beat mob X or Y is something neither you nor I really has any means to say with credibility.
The big question is: is the change enough to even make monks feel it?
My feeling says no.
CH has been overpowered ever since velious, however velious and luclin were designed around it. Same with defensive. 2/3 the game will need to be completely retuned because of the nerf to CH.
Manaburn has been asking to be nerfed since it's implimentation, that was a long time coming.
Hopefully VI thinks carefully about encounter redesigns and takes into account their nerf to Mod rods, because otherwise I feel bad for the mages that still play.
Pet haste is capped around 80% or so. Flurry does not work. Any parses I've seen show no significant damage increase over burnout 4 + muzzle (like 100 maybe? probably closer).Quote:
Did they ever get frenzied burnout working?
Yeah, mod rods were stupid. But why can't I rod myself more than once a minute? Limit how many rods I can give away if you have to destroy the need for mages.
A lot of people will get fucked. They replaced good items with Shields of Auras, Halos of Enlightening Barriers, etc. so they could get mana regen at 0 hp loss (these have rune effects). Now what? There are people stuck with a Shield of Auras that upgraded from a Essence of Nature.
The pet upgrades were a joke. On a raid, pet damage is horrible. In xp, it's nice but already was pre-upgrade. My nukes are ok, but without ancients mages are still a half-wizard.
I can't wait to see what kind of crap PoP is if they are still finishing (or starting over?) Luclin with a new expansion in 2 weeks.
I think Zead and Poosaecat is gonna be alot more popular after this change ;D.
/Aedail
noone likes zead!
These changes are brutal. Unless they decrease high end Luclin mobs' hit points by at least 3/4, they'd be impossible without mod rods. The only really bad change is the mod rod one. Some people may have thought CH rotations were "boring", but they were a viable strategy that took good coordination between clerics, tanks, mages, shaman, and other classes. Maintaining a 30-minutes CH rotation against Aten Ha Ra through cleric deaths, linkdeaths, and while being grav-fluxed every minute or so was no picnic, and DID require skill and tactics; there was a reason our 2-boxed clerics preferred not to be in the rotation. After this patch, the only tactic will be zerging, since you'll never be able to keep up with uber mob dps, unless they're also nerfed to have the dps of moss snakes.
It's way too late to make such sweeping changes to the game; they should just let it be. If anyone actually believes VI will properly balance all existing encounters that require CH rotations and mod rods, they don't know how VI operates. Many high-end mobs in Luclin and Velious will be unkillable for months at least - guaranteed, hehe.
I didn't give most of the changes much mind, or even think about them too much, except for one, the Monk nerf
I really feel bad for those people, that were surfing around the everquest sites a couple of years ago when Kunark was released for information on what class to play. They looked over skills, skill caps, avoidance caps, and likewise information. They chose Monk because of the combination of skills and caps and after 2 years of playing the character, with over 60 to 70 days played, they hit them hard with a cut back in their skills just because there are some items that are all/all that make them better tanks than Warriors and knights and took the lazy approach to fixing the issue. They didnt want to make sweeping changes to all/all 0 weight items to make them monk unfriendly, instead, what they did was hurt the people that have been playing a class for the last 2 years based on what they believed the class to be based on their skill caps.
Fucking morons is what they are....but hey thats why I am not playing anymore
The mod rod nerf had to happen in some form Rolist, there is no denying it. You can't design meaningful encounters when you have to assume that healer mana is essentially infinite.
And yea, unless they have had this coming down the pipe for awhile, and have had a few people retuning for the past few weeks, then I would really fear the patch :D. Whatever though, it's going to significantly change the game, and hopefully for the better.
I remember our first Vulak fight; it was the most boring 35 minutes I had ever spent raiding in EQ, basically. But in Luclin, that length and type of fight seems to be the new standard, and that's partially why I quit. Hopefully they will get fight times back into a reasonable time frame, where it's more about strategy and tactics than it is about endurance and error control.
Time to adjust and adapt I guess.
Yeah, overall the changes aren't bad IF, and only IF they can successfully retune high end encounters to make mobs like Emp , Cursed, Arch Lich, High Priest, Burrower, all VT bosses, and Seru basically trivial (in terms of dps and hitpoints to make them killable), which they won't - it's a given with VI. The interim balancing period will suck...
I think they should have included an appology for the SoL expansion. People were doing rod piles before Luclin and VI saw fit to improve the mod rod. Why did they improve the mod rod? Because they designed mobs with high AC and HPs.
They broke their game with SoL. Now apparently they are going to fix it in one patch. Yeah right.
Most people can agree that changes needed to be made. What irks me is the way VI continues to treat its customers as children who won't play right with their toys. They supplied us with T-rods and put us in front of mobs with millions of hps and then try to shame us for the lowly boring roles we've assigned to mages and clerics.
I wish VI would tell us which tactics/techniques they would like us to use so we can avoid misunderstandings in the future.
I dunno, it seems like they're saying "We fucked up" pretty clearly to me. I don't see any blame or shame being placed on the player.Quote:
then try to shame us for the lowly boring roles
I totally disagree with the monk changes. A Warrior should be able to take hits better then a monk sure. But a monk should be able to dodge better and essential take as much damage as a Warrior/Tank. The issue here is not that we "tank" better it's that when we get hit we are taking the same amount of damage as a Warrior with 1500ac combined with not getting hit as much making monk a better tank. In most situations. The problem here is the defense system not the monk. But rather then fix there system they nerf the monks.
Maybe i'm reading the "fix" all wrong. But IMO a monk should take 150% the damage a warrior would take. EI. if warrior takes 300 a monk would have taken 450 with same hit. Who knows maybe that is what they are trying to do.
The real issue is the warriors ability to take hits. Instead they nerf monks to make the warriors feel like they are better tanks. The AC system is still horribly broken. A bandaid isn't gonna help it.
I still think monks should get parry and dogde from behind. =)
Mitsy
I don't think Verant designs mobs or encounters with any strategy in mind to defeat them. If players find a strategy that works, great, but I doubt Verant likes the strategies we choose. I really think Verant intents mobs to be zerged to death. If players find a sure-fire strategy, it needs to be nerfed and the players made to feel guilty for using it...
Well, maybe not, but it seems that way sometimes with all their constant fiddling with things. :D
I really don't think the changes are bad at all. If it gives us a chance for a potentially fun and/or different expansion, where there is at least a chance in hell at getting away from CH chains, then I am all for the changes.
The CH change will at least make it so Healing Adept and Healing Gift have more of a chance of making an impact. I would like to see that focus items can affect CH now, but who knows.
There really are very few fights where mod-rodding is essential to winning - aten, emp, the really gay blobs. Most things in VT can be ch rotated with a min of 5 clerics, ancient mana-song, and 0 rods, assuming your clerics have FT15 and decent manapools. Seru is a joke, as is cursed. I know mages are up in a roar - but it is rather demeaning to be a "mod rod bish". Although the target, cast no drop rod crap will be a pain in the ass.
Monk changes are long overdue. A monk shouldn't be the best tank, period. However, word on the monk board is a SIT IN is on schedule!! So protesters warm up your butts!!
Manaburn nerf is inconsequential and really only stops the group of 5-6 wizards from MB'ing Kunark dragons and selling the profits - big deal. Most fights last 10+ mins anyways and even if POP fights last 10-20 mins, there will still be time for each wizard to cast his/her manaburn if he/she desires during the fight. Once per minute? BFD.
It's unfortunate that it took Verant so long to realize these changes were necessary and to implement them. However, it potentially improves gameplay and we're all bored with gameplay as it stands now.
Predictability and formula ch-chain fights have already done enough damage to gameplay. Hopefully we never have to CH-chain again!! :D (ok yeah so wishful thinking I am sure)
"monks shouldn't be the best tanks"
I wasn't aware they where.
Seriously though not trying be a smart ass but, when is the last time you saw a monk tanking the AOW or the Emp. The only thing this nerf affects is your top 1% of monks. Other then the 4-5 monks in HOSS no other monks on the server are even close to tanking as well as Stomp or Cardinal. The whole monks making better tanks only refers to single or group exp type mobs and your top 1-2% of the monks. 99 times out of a 100 the war/sk/pal is gonna tank better.
Monks aren't the best tanks, a close second when you compare the top 5 of all classes, yes. I just think they choose the easy way out. Instead of fixing AC they nerf monks.
Mitsy
Uhm Mitsy, I think they are doing basically what you suggest, making it so that monks get hit harder, but still retain their ability to be hit less. That's the way I read it anyway. Now Monks and Rangers can coordinate whine fests! :p
And it's still possible that they are changing the AC system in PoP. I would hope they do anyway, otherwise warriors are still going to basically be nothing but a large pool of hitpoints.
And they had to specifically nerf monks, otherwise they would have had to make every plate class take damage better, and perhaps chain too. PR-wise, that might have been the best choice, but the game is trivial enough as it is.
I wonder what they are doing to adjust Manaburn in PvP though? Not that anyone really cares, though :).
Well we don't do AOW - but I've seen FOH monks tank just about every mob in VT and Emp. Without having to resort to any defensive discs, they were still able to mitigate damge nearly as well as a warrior - without any penalty to their offensive abilities. Warriors have remained *best tank* only because of their defensive/evasive discs - not because they have insane damage mitigation skills.Quote:
Seriously though not trying be a smart ass but, when is the last time you saw a monk tanking the AOW or the Emp.
And these changes are meant to affect the high end content players. A monk in an experience GROUP will still be just as effective. A monk's soloing ability may be diminished but I seriously doubt it will make it impossible for them to solo. In fact it very well may not even require downtime for a monk to continue soloing.
Would be nice if people, monks in particular, would see how these changes actually come into play, before resorting to sit-ins and crying foul play. Everyone in the end game knows that a change to monks has been long overdue. As well as a variety of other changes, including the change to CH. It's not a personal nerf to you - its a change that will hopefully better gameplay and give encounters a chance to be challenging. Something we haven't seen in a very long time.
Heh, so true. I had the same experience with my first Vulak fight. I got home from work and Vindi was doing Vulak at 2 am pst on a weekday. However with the this strategy, that most of us have been using for over a year now, a prectictable outcome came with it. And it came within 35-40 mins.Quote:
Originally posted by Eomer
I remember our first Vulak fight; it was the most boring 35 minutes I had ever spent raiding in EQ, basically. But in Luclin, that length and type of fight seems to be the new standard, and that's partially why I quit. Hopefully they will get fight times back into a reasonable time frame, where it's more about strategy and tactics than it is about endurance and error control.
It's predictability that makes encounters boring. However I can also see that a good deal of people are not going to want to re-learn the game.
Wow, Vulak took that long to kill? It's like a Luclin mob! I never had the "pleasure" of fighting Vulak since I was on an extended break during Hoss's whole ToV/ST period.
"Fucking morons is what they are....but hey thats why I am not playing anymore"
Haha, you and me both Rhedd!!
If I did still play EQ though, this is what I'd be concerned about the most. Verant has obviosuly wanted to make this change for a very long time, especially in preparation for whatever they feel should be the high end encounters for PoP. But, have they tested it at all? They've proven in the past a bazillion times that their own internal testing isn't worth shit. The only way they can really test the changes that will be a huge part of PoP is by putting it live. So they do that now... what? 2 weeks before PoP? And they're assuming that they can get it right within those 2 weeks so that the PoP encounters aren't totally fucked for a long while, the way luclin encounters will be?
Mwahaha, have fun, guys!!! ;)
They don't want to make warriors better, so they're bringing you down to the chain class level. A monks mitigation shouldn't make them the 2nd best tanks in the game. You're getting your mitigation lowered. I'm not sure if they're touching your avoidance. You'll probably tank as well as a rogue or ranger. You know that monks, barring minor hp upgrades and defensive had essentially better tanking abilities than a warrior? Warriors got by just on equipment and EB weapons. That's a pretty blah life.Quote:
Originally posted by Mitsy
[B]I totally disagree with the monk changes. A Warrior should be able to take hits better then a monk sure. But a monk should be able to dodge better and essential take as much damage as a Warrior/Tank. The issue here is not that we "tank" better it's that when we get hit we are taking the same amount of damage as a Warrior with 1500ac combined with not getting hit as much making monk a better tank. In most situations. The problem here is the defense system not the monk. But rather then fix there system they nerf the monks.
This is what they're doingQuote:
Maybe i'm reading the "fix" all wrong. But IMO a monk should take 150% the damage a warrior would take. EI. if warrior takes 300 a monk would have taken 450 with same hit. Who knows maybe that is what they are trying to do.
The real issue is the warriors ability to take hits. Instead they nerf monks to make the warriors feel like they are better tanks. The AC system is still horribly broken. A bandaid isn't gonna help it.
:|Quote:
I still think monks should get parry and dogde from behind. =)
Tilea is approaching warning level 3 of retired bitter eq player forum camper!Quote:
Originally posted by Tilea
"Fucking morons is what they are....but hey thats why I am not playing anymore"
Haha, you and me both Rhedd!!
If I did still play EQ though, this is what I'd be concerned about the most. Verant has obviosuly wanted to make this change for a very long time, especially in preparation for whatever they feel should be the high end encounters for PoP. But, have they tested it at all? They've proven in the past a bazillion times that their own internal testing isn't worth shit. The only way they can really test the changes that will be a huge part of PoP is by putting it live. So they do that now... what? 2 weeks before PoP? And they're assuming that they can get it right within those 2 weeks so that the PoP encounters aren't totally fucked for a long while, the way luclin encounters will be?
Mwahaha, have fun, guys!!! ;)
I must be at like level 9 =\
This is the view from a player whow as for a short time in the high end ((never saw emp or VT mobs dead at my feet, the rest I have), and I am now in Novus Invictus, while not the highest of Dro, we have held our own, moving up the ladder with tunare dead and such.
The modrod change is going to be rough on many guilds that are not in the highest tier, whose gear as Sirensa stated does not include clerics all having 15ft, and ancient bard song playing for us. We learned to modrod to make up for these differences in gear. We've used 3 clerics to kill KT or Yelinak, but this is only possible using mod rods with the gear and aa we have. Not only will the high high end need to be retuned, but mobs like KT or Creator or Tunare, will need decent adjustments to be able to still accomplish the kill with the present amount of numbers you can kill these mobs with.
The CH change I think is one they are more presing onto warriors then any other class. With everyone hitting the AC cap, AC became useless, so the only difference between warriors and the rets was the hp gap we achieved. Warriors became focused on getting the highest hp gear they could get, so we see tanks now with 8k+ hps buffed. With PoP, if they release 150hp items, we will see this go beyond that, not to mention new buffs. By limiting CH to 7500hps, VI is basically limiting tanks to 7500hps. I'm sure we could come, or someone would, come up with strats to heal tanks beyond that many hps, but it seems more VI is attempting to limit warrior hps so we are not as HP frenzy as we have been with luclin and velious. With PoP AA, in present gear I will break the 7500hp mark at level 65 with the stat cap raises (7200 now). With CH at 7500hps, HP's are less important for me once I hit 7500hps buffed, I can focus on increasing other stats like resists in place of hp gear (say using a 50hps range with 15 sv all instead of AoW bow for its 100hps).
Monks... deal, leather shouldn't be able to absorb dmg like steel~ hehe.
(slight flaw in my CH logic, extra hps can still save a warrior if a CH is late and not heal you to full, so the next tops you off, but it is not as effective as the 10k heal).
Well I do believe they stated that the tuning to these changes would not be limited to POP only.Quote:
We learned to modrod to make up for these differences in gear. We've used 3 clerics to kill KT or Yelinak, but this is only possible using mod rods with the gear and aa we have.
However - I think the point of the Mod Rod nerf is exactly what you just explained. You shouldn't be able to kill KT or Yelinak with 3 clerics sucking down mod-rods. Mod rods shouldn't make that big of an impact on the doability of an encounter. The ability to provide "unlimited mana" despite gear or AA is exactly what was wrong with mod rod 2 in the first place. I believe you have just proven exactly why this nerf is taking place.
I don't know of any tank that seriously won't continue to drive for more HP gear. The amount CH heals has nothing to do with it. More HP = more damage a tank can take = more time you have to heal them before they are dead. More HP will never stop being a good thing.Quote:
By limiting CH to 7500hps, VI is basically limiting tanks to 7500hps.
With CH at 7500hps, HP's are less important for me once I hit 7500hps buffed, I can focus on increasing other stats like resists in place of hp gear