North ToV

Ok.. so you asked for my thoughts on North ToV and rotations, so here we go:

1. For the first month (October), a guilds rotation slot will consist of up to 7 consecutive days in North ToV. Leaving the North ToV area for 24 hours will be deemed as aborting an existing raid, and the remaining spawns will be up for grabs (the same guild can move back in if nobody else does of course). Beyond October, a guilds rotation slot will consist of 4 consecutive days - this is to incur some haste to the raid, while still allowing sufficient time for the guild to make some mistakes and still recover.

2. Killing Aaryonar is considered "breaking" the NToV area. I think before any guild ventures deeper into NToV, they should be required to prove themselves by taking Aaryonar out. Since Aaryonar is the first test of NToV, I think that if a guild cannot kill him by the end of the 2nd day of their raid, that they should step aside and let another capable guild through.

3. Spawn rot protection. In the event of a scheduled patch due in under 24 hours, it is requested that an unproven guild steps aside to allow a proven guild (if they choose), to kill certain spawns in North ToV - these would fall under the same guidelines as other up for grab spawns. If a proven guild doesn't request the spawns, then whatever, hehe.

4. Leapfrogging. This shouldn't be much of an issue, as we are going to be respecting each others space as defined in 1 above. However, in terms of the up for grab spawns, there may sometimes be more than 1 guild in NToV to clean up the leftovers. In this event, both guilds should agree on which dragons they intend to take out on the day of the raid.

5. Vulak. I felt that a special clause should be placed for Vulak. Basically, should any guild kill Lord Vyemm - that guild will get their shot at Vulak - PERIOD. It doesn't matter if Vyemm is killed at 3:00 am on the 7th day of their "rotation" slot. The other guilds involved in the rotation will respect this guild and their shot at Vulak.

*most edits done now*

Not ignoring this, but just didn't get around to posting on our O board, which I'm doing right now.

Baramos

We're still thinking about this, in Mythic.

It appears to be reasonable, at first glance.

We're going to take our Oct 5 turn in ToV before we commit to anything, however.

Having no experience there, yet, we want to get the lay of the land.

Baramos

Heh 7 days? Are you kidding, thats damned crazy and unreasonable. Almost every single guild that clears all of north does so in in TWO days, three should be pleanty to clear it all. With if course the clause that if you do kill Vyemm you get Vulak regardless of the day.

I dont know why in the hell we are talking 7 days that would mean each guild basicly has NToV out of business for 2 damn weeks. My vote is 3 days to clear, if Vyemm not dead third day another guild(that has broken NToV, Aary) can get some tries in at him.

I agree with your two days on Aary then let other guilds go, which was what we talked about and agree'd on in IRC that day. We also agree'd on three days max, no idea where 7 came from thats wayyy too much and NToV would be rotated much slower.

Having been the first guild to crack NToV we know how long it took, it took 2 days to kill(and this was our first time) and we had third day to mess with Vyemm and stuff. 7 fucking days? Two weeks per guild per NToV is just outragous and totally unacceptible...

Would be looking at NToV once every 1.5 months with ML Hoss Vindi in rotation. Three guilds, 1.5 months, crazy.

Actually, it's only 7 days for a single month, then down to 4 days if I read that correctly.

And I believe the intention is to clear it, not just break it.

And where do you get 2 weeks per guild for it?

Heh we cleared all but 2 dragons in 2 days, mind your our first time. Another day should be pleanty to mess with Vyemm Vulak. Especially after your first run through, as it will get much easier.

Also 1 wk clearing+1 wk respawn=2 Weeks NToV downtime.

Gotcha on the math, but it would still be only a week from spawn death to repop = 1 week, just spaced out spawns.

Like Bara said, let's see what it looks like when ML goes in there on the 5th. We'll likely blow through it as well, but until that time let's keep an open mind on the timing and dialogue for it.

Edit: ML intends to be there all weekend and then some starting the 5th, using this 7 day guideline.

Ciner, from what I recall, you guys killed all but 3 dragons, Zlexak, Vyemm, and Vulak.

The reason for 7 days, is primarly to give a guild multiple days to attempt Vyemm. Considering that Vindication's current NToV raid has been going for 2 days, and I think you've cleared only Eashen and Aaryonar, I figured that you of all people would agree to these terms.

The bulk of that zone can be easily cleared in 2 or 3 days. I think FoH and AL can clear it regularly in 2 days, however I know FoH still takes 3 days sometimes.

Also, the 7 day period mentioned is 100% targetted at giving a guild sufficient time to attempt Vyemm/Vulak. Considering that most of the zone will be clear by the 3rd day of the raid, that means that those 13 named will respawn on the same timeline (ie, 7 days), and will *not* hold up the following raid. This is the reason for the 2 day limitation on Aaryonar (to make sure people don't get a late start on a clearing).

If a guild wants to sit and try Vyemm for 5 days after clearing everything else in 2 days, I say more power to them, as they have EARNED the right to do it.

Just an update from ML on this topic.

After our first couple of days in here, and observing firsthand the huge investment of time and RL energy that this raid involves, Andaas' initial suggestions are spot on, and very reasonable, as far as we're concerned.

We've only had two and a half days in here, and there's a patch tonight, so we'll be back in right after the patch tomorrow to finish up our (patch-forced) 7-day raid allotment time.

In fact, as of this writing, there are still a few dragons that have not respawned yet since Hoss's clearing last week.

I think we need to discuss how to handle patch situations with regards to a 7-day raid plan.

The issue at hand is the fact that a scheduled patch is something that everyone is aware of ahead of time - they are scheduled. An emergency patch is something that is out of control of everyone else, as they typically come with 6 hours of notice or less.

At what point of a NToV raid should a patch be considered "recoverable" (ie, where the guild affected by the patch is allowed to restart)?

Last week, Hoss was hit with an emergency patch on the 2nd day of the raid. Hoss had killed 4 or 5 dragons. Hoss got "extra" loot from 5 mobs due to the patch.

This week, ML was hit with a scheduled patch on the 3rd day of the raid. ML had killed at least 8 dragons as I write this. ML will get "extra" loot from 8 or more mobs due to the patch.

And not only that, Vyemm and Vulak still haven't spawned.

We were not able to get in our full raid because we would still have had to wait for them to spawn even if there wasn't a patch.

Btw, this patch had originally been scheduled for Tuesday. It was only moved back to Monday recently (thanks DAoC).

Dude heh.. this is getting out of hand. The 7 day proposal, with more thought is reasonable, but, like everytime there is a patch its resetting, when guilds are getting half of Ntov and then starting over fresh. Basicly getting 1.5x Ntov a turn, as has happened in Hoss's case as well as ML's.

I'm sure i'm going to get pressed about this cause the only other two guilds in ntov just got 1.5 of a turn this way, but its just plain unfair and something should be said.

Well, it seems that ML is taking their "turn" in NToV regardless of what is said here.

With that said, I say that Vindication be allowed 1 restart at any time in the future from now on for any patch.

From that time forward, SCHEDULED patches = no dice // EMERGENCY patches with more than 24 hour notice = no dice // EMERGENCY patches with under 24 hour notice = restart ONLY if 5 or less mobs have been killed (but the Aaryonar rule still stands... so if Aary didn't die on day 2, the guild still steps aside).

In my opinion, once you have killed more than 1/2 of the spawns, your raid has proven successful and you should move on in the event of a patch. The other NToV capable guilds have BOTH done this previously. ML is not following how it was done in the past, so new rules have to be created.

The Hoss raid in NO WAY interfered with ML's raid this weekend. We ensured that the spawns were up in time for you to kill them per your scheduled start time, considering that Vyemm/Vulak were to be saved for the end of the raid (and also considering that it was understood you were there for only the weekend originally).

I highly doubt that ML was purposely trained by Hoss to cause any delay in your NToV raid - especially since you weren't even raiding NToV at the time. If NToV was your "raid" for the weekend, I'm not even sure why you would spend the time killing Klandicar and Sontalak first.

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From that time forward, SCHEDULED patches = no dice // EMERGENCY patches with more than 24 hour notice = no dice // EMERGENCY patches with under 24 hour notice = restart ONLY if 5 or less mobs have been killed

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So are we to just let the mobs go unkilled then?

No one in their right mind would go in there for one day, knowing that would kill their shot at Vulak.

That's unacceptable as written. We need a compromise such as I suggested in my other thread of a secondary rotation for partial mobs.

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The Hoss raid in NO WAY interfered with ML's raid this weekend. We ensured that the spawns were up in time for you to kill them per your scheduled start time, considering that Vyemm/Vulak were to be saved for the end of the raid (and also considering that it was understood you were there for only the weekend originally).

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On the contrary, you did not ensure the spawns would be up. Only the first few dragons had spawned when we started.

If you thought we would only be there for the weekend then you obviously missed our post made on September 18th, which spurred the whole discussion of N ToV rotations, the final outcome of which was an agreement for a 7 day turn (which I think is too long myself, but it was your idea).

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I highly doubt that ML was purposely trained by Hoss to cause any delay in your NToV raid - especially since you weren't even raiding NToV at the time.

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You are wrong.

We *were* in N ToV when Sirensa, Sazar, and others trained us. You trained over a dozen of us who were bound there after a dragon encounter in N ToV. This was on *Saturday* night, well into our raid. It caused multiple deaths on many people (some died 4+ time in death loops), and required a sizable force to stop the raid and "rescue" those you had trained. I'm sure you can guess what our guildsay was like if you've ever had your defenseless, naked clerics and casters trained on repeatedly. Or maybe you haven't. We're getting used to it in ML.

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If NToV was your "raid" for the weekend, I'm not even sure why you would spend the time killing Klandicar and Sontalak first.

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We killed Sontalak on Friday afternoon before the raid, knowing that if we left him up, based on previous encounters with another guild, that it was highly likely he would be trained on our people traveling to ToV and our people who were bound there, given the opportunity.

Unfortunately, he respawned within 24 hours (Saturday afternoon), and lo and behold we were trained anyway just as we feared would happen. It's kind of a no-win situation for ML. We have become the defacto Sontalak police. If we don't kill him, we get trained on. So we have to kill him to protect ourselves.

(Klandicar?? That takes an extra 10 minutes to pull and kill after Sonatalak is dead. Don't even have to rebuff.)

As for being wrong, I am basing this information on what you have posted, since as stated before, I was out of town for the weekend.

I really find it hard to believe that your people were trained intentionally - thats just silly.

I have been trained at the ToV zone entrance by members of ML while I'm naked and sitting at my bind point. I have been trained by members of ML while sitting in front of Kael. I have never once whined and cried about it like you have.

You are claiming what was done was done with malicious intent, I see no basis for this. If you had people die in NToV during a raid, and they just happened to be outside of the zone entrance at their bind spot naked, HOW ARE PEOPLE IN WW TO KNOW NOT TO TRAIN? As for people getting stuck in a death loop, well I for one am not likely to go AFK while sitting anywhere in Western Wastes - I have been trained at the ToV zone, the SG zone, basically everywhere. If I am bound there and need to go AFK, I am intelligent enough to zone into ToV first.

You claimed in your training thread that ML and others commonly offer to COH people in. Since ML wasn't doing Sontalak, I can only assume that ML didn't have COH set up, and the people training into the zone were doing so via the only means possible - to train.

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Originally posted by Rohaise
[B]

So are we to just let the mobs go unkilled then?

No one in their right mind would go in there for one day, knowing that would kill their shot at Vulak.

That's unacceptable as written. We need a compromise such as I suggested in my other thread of a secondary rotation for partial mobs.

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It was just a quick draft of a simple idea, nothing that didn't need some adjusting. You need to relax a little bit and not snap the head off of every idea that is presented here.

I was presenting a simplistic approach to restarts, as I think both Vindication and Hoss agree that ML's clearing 75% of the zone and restarting is excessive - especially since both Vindication and Hoss have aborted out of even further advanced raids due to patches in the past.

Oh, and I would ask that you explain how the Hoss kill timing caused delays for your NToV raid. I would like specifics -- what dragons were not up when you were ready to attack them? How much time was spent by ML waiting on spawns, and when?

This thread's going off-topic.

Mythic, now that we have some experience there, will ponder the points being raised by Andaas, Ciner, Rohaise, and give some feedback by the weekend.

Baramos

"From that time forward, SCHEDULED patches = no dice // EMERGENCY patches with more than 24 hour notice = no dice // EMERGENCY patches with under 24 hour notice = restart ONLY if 5 or less mobs have been killed"

Totally fair imo, willing to accept this as long as Vindication gets 1 patch restart when we please, to balance things.

Why is this turning into an arguement, can we not just finish this discussion and reach an acceptible solution to all involved.

I agree, Ciner.

I'm too busy at work to ponder it, this week, however.

I'll think about it on the weekend, and commit to a response by Sunday. Like I said earlier, most of the stuff seems reasonable, here.

Having spent the weekend there, and observing first-hand how things work verifies the validity of most of the first post.

I think all we need to do is work out the details, now.

Baramos