lol Lola

Hello Lola. Hello Karendra.

I posted this here because I knew you'd find the embers in my controversy satisfying. I know I did.

The "why can't we all just hug and get along" attitude from some of my fellow citizens makes me want to vomit. No - not their message. Their attitude. You see, they've decided that while they have the right to act and behave and believe what they will...I do not have those same rights.

Those are the same people who believe they have all the answers and when I voice my opinion which happens to be opposite of theirs, I'm told I'm "wrong." Yet, were I to make the same statement regarding their attitude, I'd get the "Freedom of Speech" flag waved in my face so fast my head would spin.

Some of you reading this believe with all your heart and soul that the United States should immediately remove all our weapons of war from the Middle East and everywhere else on the planet. Disarm our armies, sink our navies and ground our air force.

I have personally taken my turn in the military - because I believe everyone in this country has been given the acts of free thinking and speech along with many other freedoms that almost no other country in the world has (and while I'm on that side note - ALL other countries with the same freedoms the U.S. can profess - earned them in the SAME WAY the U.S has.) But I also knew those acts were not free. They were paid for with the lives and blood of others.

I dont agree with those of you who believe the "hug those who supported and killed thousands of innocent people and will continue to do so forever until stopped) - but I have fought for your right to think the way you do.

How about (just for ONCE) you come to realize that I too (and many others just like me) ALSO have those same rights.

As far as I'm concerned, you can hate my message - but NEVER will you have the right to take my message away.

-LK

p.s. I noticed you "locked" my "France" thread....I guess that just proved my point, eh? It's amazing how far you'd go to keep someone else from voicing an opinion that just happens to not agree with you, Lola. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Oh, and taking up the "well, that's not an EQ thread" would be just about as bogus as possible. Fully 50% of the threads in "general" have nothing whatsoever to do with EQ. You know it. I know it. Everyone reading this knows it.

What's that quote?

"I don't believe a word that comes out of your mouth - but I'd die for your right to say it." Just thought of that when I read this.
/shrug.

I'll not repeat the contents of my PM to you here, but let's be very clear what this is about.

Your post was not an attempt to start healthy debate. It was a flame. Feel free to start a thread that might have the potential to be constructive (this one is off to a much better start).

Not sure on the specific wording, but I thought it was quoted by Voltaire. Who knows! :D

Ironicaly, he was french.

I hate when threads get locked. Feels good to get the last word, I suppose :D

That was it raja! thank you, had been bugging me.

Ok here's healthy, non-flamatory debate. The guy with the french citizenship was offended by the picture of the cemetary/memorial of people who "died defending their country.". But I believe, and I could be wrong though, that cemetary is a monument to the allies who died at Normandy beach during the D-Day invasion. Which makes them British, Canadian and US soldiers who died defending an Allies country (france obviously), not their own. Correct me if I'm wrong of course, in regards to that image.




Now for a flamatory remark:

Paladins suck.

I used bad wording in my post, sorry.

The people in that graveyard are by far mostly americans - so - "died defending europe" would have been more appropriate. It was an act of goodwill on the part of the americans, and the picture being brought up still trivialized those deaths.

"Yeah, see, all these americans died at normandy, which happens to be in france - ipso facto they all died for the french - and look how thankful they are! They even tried to stop us from waging war on iraq!"

It's not like the french had helped the americans secure their freedom from the british, or sent you the monument to liberty you're so proud of.

History and generations fade, politics move forward - international relationships change. Never speak badly of the dead, especially of those who were honourable in life.


-Exit

Maybe people just find it offensive to use the people who died during WW2 to create a rift between the US and France, regardless where those poeple came from.

Those people knew very well what they were dying for and it was definately not to be instrumentalized in stupid jokes on a messageboard about a computer game.

I wouldn't say people use those images to be disrespectful towards people who died during WW2. More likely it's just an outet for frustration. For example, does the entire country of Germany hate the Coka-Cola corporation? No, but German restaurants etc are boycotting their products right now, simply because it's an American company. Convenient outlet for their frustration with the US. Same thing as with that image I'd say, but on a different level.

I wouldn't say people use those images to be disrespectful towards people who died during WW2.

They surely don't use them TO be disrespectful, but in using them as they do they ARE disrespectful. At least thats my view.



No, but German restaurants etc are boycotting their products right now, simply because it's an American company.

Uh, thats in the news in the USA? Well living in germany I can assure you, its as true as the iraqui farmer bringing down the apache helicopter with his rifle or 9500 iraqui soldiers surrendering on the first day.

Well the papers have quotes directly from people who own the restaurants in Germany that are boycotting poor coka-cola. I doubt they would fabricate the whole thing including the quoted text.

I had a lot of thoughts that came to the forefront when I saw that photo. All coming from my bias as an American. I would not have thought of posting if Exitilus did not make his post that confirmed, to me, what I feel about what a lot of people in Europe believe... that America had it coming to them (and to some extent they felt vindicated). Does this mean a lot of people in Europe think this way? Who knows but it is what I have come to think. I know its natural to hate hate America because we are the only superpower, I know that America is not perfect and has a different set of priorities than in general Europe has (BTW I think that this goes hand and hand with us being a superpower... for example Microsoft is not well liked and is very powerful.... both for in general the same reasons IMO).

What I don’t like as an American is that I have a perception that Europe would rather talk over, discuss and debate instead of fixing problems. A lot of problems in the world have come about from a lot of different sources. France, America, Great Britain and a host of other power some even gone are the root cause of some deep seated problems in the world. I firmly believe that sitting around and doing nothing (a view that is coveted by France in my biased opinion) is absolutely wrong. While I wish America would have a different tact, but that is Sunday morning QB'n... I do believe that Europe in general will be "against" us in any case since we are doing something.

But the fact that America is damn if we do and damned if we don’t is clear to me. North Korea is a perfect example, Bush seems to feel if we do 1 on 1 talks with NK we will basically be extorted or we will have to go to war. Bush feels we should try to let china deal with this issue. I hear a lot of news of leaders of the world complaining that we are not fixing the NK issue... but damn they bitch when we try fix, in our own way, issues other place. You don’t give tell a 300 pound wrestler with a baseball bat the task of making your kid clean up his room and then bitch at him that your kid has 2 broken arms and a broken leg.

France in particular screwed up before WW2... this was not as I understand an American failing (well maybe not the root cause but defiantly the years before Hitler started invading other countries France had blind blindness) that Hitler was absolutely dealt with wrongly by Europe (hind site is 20/20 yes) America at great cost did bail Europe out of an issue that they really should have been able to fix without them if France in particular did not have its head in its ass (yes, we had to do it in any case, Hitler was more of a threat than the good that may have come from German speeking French).

France and America (among a ton of others probably) screwed up in Iraq. I 100% feel if in the mid 80's if Sadamn had gotten nuke... 100% due to French help. That not only would France not have understood how they fucked up (like how they fucked up in the 5 or 7 years pre 1942) France would have done nothing to fix the issue. And after this they scream at the Americans... this logic blows my mind... if I had screwed up as much as the French then at least I would have the courtesy to at least shut up even if America is NOT doing everything right.

Off topic (kinda) there was a movie where college kids invited a stranger into there house to poison him and the ethical issue of “if you met Hitler in the 20’s would you kill him” came up… anyone remember the name of that movie?

If you met Hitler in the 20’s would you kill him even if it meant you would die?
If you met Sadamn in the 60’s would you kill him even if meant you would die?

Edit: yes yes plz dont debate on "time travel" issues.. that is not the point of those 2 questions

I'm not saying france is in the right - I'm just saying the horrible anti-french attitude is biggoted and I take offense to it.


-Exit



edit: im fact, I support the war on iraq - my only qualm is the way it was brought about - but now that it's in full swing, more power to the troops overseas.

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Originally posted by Exitilus
I'm not saying france is in the right - I'm just saying the horrible anti-french attitude is biggoted and I take offense to it.


-Exit
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lol, it seems you think anti-american attitude is ok.. but anti-french attitude is biggoted... honestly the only reason I have anti-french attitude is because of the anti-american attitude they have... this is childish yes, but I think that french's anti-american attitude is much more "evil" (evil not right word but closest I could come) than my childish reasons for my attitude.

Evil?

What do you see as their reasons?

Realistically, I know I have a bias against americans, or, the present republican gov't at the very least - but I don't think anything I've said is on par with Elkay's post. The closest I've come to being particularly offensive =>

"the way you're acting is part of the reason a band of terrorists slammed two innocent-filled passenger jets into the twin towers."

.. and, well, can you honestly say that americans being somewhat hubristic, or atleast the perception that all americans are, isn't part of the reason those terrorists did what they did?

And either way, I wouldn't consider that anti-american - it was just me stating something that's been regurgitated by the media again and again since 2001.


-Exit

I don't see how Exit has been biggoted or anti-American. Disagreeing with American foreign policy does not make you anti-American, and unfortunately I think a lot of people don't realize it. Maybe it's due to the current atmosphere in world politics of "if you aren't with us, you are against us" that has been brought about. I don't know. There's just too much black and white going on.

I also don't agree with France's position on the whole issue. I don't agree with the US either. But to say that one country or the other is screwing their friends and ungrateful for past favors is stupid and offensive. Yes, the US sacrificed a lot in WWII, and so did many others. However, that does not mean that France has to give the US carte blanche to do whatever it wants throughout the world. They believe they are right, they are standing up for what they believe. I respect that more than, say, Jordan who won't even admit to it's own people that they are helping the US in Iraq with their hands out and their wallets open.

The thing I think is really stupid about this, is that Germany and Russia have both been almost as outspoken as France on this whole thing. Almost, but not quite :). Yet I haven't seen anyone out on the street pouring German beers down the drain, burning their BMW, throwing out all their vodka, or cracking constant jokes about Russia needing 20 soldiers to kill one enemy soldier. France is being singled out for some reason. I think it has as much to do with constant jokes about them in mass media (The Simpson's or any other irreverent comedy show, South Park, Maxim, it goes on and on) than past history. France is a fashionable target for some reason, and I think it's as least partially undeserved.

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the acts of free thinking and speech along with many other freedoms that almost no other country in the world has (and while I'm on that side note - ALL other countries with the same freedoms the U.S. can profess - earned them in the SAME WAY the U.S has.)

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You don't honestly believe that do you? Almost no other country? I guess all of Western Europe, North America, parts of South America, Africa, Asia, and Australia don't count? There are dozens upon dozens of countries with the same or similar freedoms to the US. They may not all be as economically successful, but they have the freedoms nonetheless.

And they all earned them in the same way? Really? Shit, I must have missed the Canadian Revolution. I wonder why they didn't mention it in high school :/. I am not knocking the way in which the US's independence came about, just saying that not everyone got those freedoms in the same way. Another example is Britain. They didn't need to overthrow the monarchy, theirs was a slow change.

There's a difference between taking a topic and being controversial merely to attract attention and discord. I was stating facts. Not flame.

France declined ALL political requests (including fly overs) for the middle east war.

This is not the first time they've done this. This is not the second time they've done this. This is the third time they have denied assistance to us.

I dont have to recall - I can look at my original, "France is Shit" thread and see that I made no personal attack on anyone - while those who oppose me have done so twice.

To my opposition:
How about coming back with something that has a little backbone? Something in direct conflict with MY MESSAGE?

"ELEVEN THOUSAND ALLIED SOLDIERS (MOST OF WHICH ARE AMERICAN) DIED FREEING FRANCE FROM TYRANY AND NOW THEY ARE (FOR THE THIRD TIME) REFUSING TO HELP US IN OUR TIME OF NEED - WE NEED TO SERIOUSLY RECONSIDER WHO WE CALL 'ALLIES'"

That was the message - it was clear and to the point. They almost certainly would have been freed regardless but at the cost of how many of their people?

Now then - if you want to stand up and say, "So what? Those 11,000 men died for nothing. France owes us nothing. I support France." then fine. Do that. But dont try to hide behind threads and their specific 'requirements'

-LK

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Originally posted by Exitilus
"the way you're acting is part of the reason a band of terrorists slammed two innocent-filled passenger jets into the twin towers."

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I dunno what to say.. if you really dont understand how offensive that statement was... well I dunno what to say. I get from your qoute that we deserved it. I still love my dad even though he did a ton of things wrong... he had good intentions and yes.. in the end my life was better because I had a dad. Can you say that the world would be better off without america.... Can you say we don't have good intentions for a better world. I can understand what my dad's dismay would feel like if he felt I did not like after I grew up and his dismay of how I did not like him while I was a child. well if we can assume france is grown up can you understand america's dismay.. or is france just still a child? I remember saying stuff with the same intent when I was a kid to my dad.

The true reasons for anti-americanism by french someone could do a discertation on... and do a much better job then me... in contrast my reasons are simple.. I have a belief that some of the reasons for french anti-americanism is due to:

1) the assault of there culture by american culture (this wording is missleading because the funny thing is, french is insecure about there culture and its ability to be changed by america even existing in its current form)
2) the fact that america is strong and french is week economicly and militarily (the hate the guy on top is bad syndrom)
3) a ton ton ton of other reasons I am not smart or knowledgable enough to try to psyco-analize. (yes yes, I still try)

In conclusion its my opinion that the motivations of french's anti-american attitues are ones rooted in envy, greed, insecurity and more... this is more "evil" (again for lack of a better word) then my childish reason of "I hate you cause you hate me" reason.

Edit: wont ppl try to answer my 2 ethical delema quesitons in my first post.. would be fun to see what ppl say on that... answer the question before you watch the movie.. it will be interesting to see what you think of your original andswer after seeing the movie... damn .. no one knows it name?

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France declined ALL political requests (including fly overs) for the middle east war.

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Fact, okay, check. Though, what makes you think that asking *multiple* times should change their opinions on the issue?

US: We want to go to war, for X reasons.
France: We don't find your reasons convincing, we won't support your war.
US: Please?
France: No, we said that already.
US: Pretty please?
France: No!
US: You suck, you cheese eating surrender monkeys!

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This is not the first time they've done this. This is not the second time they've done this. This is the third time they have denied assistance to us.

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Well, they don't agree with you on some of the issues involved, so? That's life.

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I dont have to recall - I can look at my original, "France is Shit" thread and see that I made no personal attack on anyone - while those who oppose me have done so twice.

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Well, "france is shit" sounds alot like a personal attack on anyone with french connections to me. (that, of course, wasn't in the first post, but anyhow)

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To my opposition:
How about coming back with something that has a little backbone? Something in direct conflict with MY MESSAGE?

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By a little backbone do you mean hate-mongering?

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"ELEVEN THOUSAND ALLIED SOLDIERS (MOST OF WHICH ARE AMERICAN) DIED FREEING FRANCE FROM TYRANY AND NOW THEY ARE (FOR THE THIRD TIME) REFUSING TO HELP US IN OUR TIME OF NEED - WE NEED TO SERIOUSLY RECONSIDER WHO WE CALL 'ALLIES'"

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As I said, the attack just happened to take place in france - it was a liberation of europe. As I'm sure you learned in highschool the D-Day attack wasn't solely a liberation of france.

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That was the message - it was clear and to the point. They almost certainly would have been freed regardless but at the cost of how many of their people?

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You still haven't explained why exactly things that happened generations ago should dictate france's present foreign policy. It isn't very just to expect it, either way. People need to stand up for what they believe in, and, well, that's what the french are doing. (regardless of ulterior motives - it's not like the united states is perfectly clean on this count either)

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Now then - if you want to stand up and say, "So what? Those 11,000 men died for nothing. France owes us nothing. I support France." then fine. Do that. But dont try to hide behind threads and their specific 'requirements'

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Those men died to destroy a a military power that was an immediate menace to the dozens of countries in its immediate vicinity, as I said. France owes you nothing. That being said, I don't particularly support france either, but I respect their rights as an independant nation.


-Exit