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Mythic is going to be making our ventures into North Wing of ToV on 10/5/01.
Giving plenty of notice, so there is no confusion and the spawns will be up.
Edit: We'll be there all weekend and then some to do the crawl through. So assume 10/5 to 10/12.
Just an FYI.
ML plans to "restart" ToV after patch. We're going to spend the week in there, as per our post above.
It's rather annoying to have to start over, but Vulak's not due until Tuesday, and the patch is Monday.
Baramos
I am a bit concerned about this myself. ML originally posted requesting a weekend to "test the waters" in NToV. Viewing ML's web page shows that you were fairly successful and killed well over half of the spawns, and Monday morning's patch was publically known for most of last week.
Had ML been forced to deal with an emergency patch after killing only 3 or 4 dragons, that is one thing... but if I'm not mistaken, as of 9:00 pacific on Sunday, you have killed: Eashen, Aaryonar, Feshlak, Dagarn, Kreizenn, Koi'doken, Lady Miranella, and Jorlleag, 8 of the 15 named spawns in North ToV. I will wager that you killed at least 1 more dragon tonight after I logged.
The patch that Hoss dealt with afforded us enough time to clear Eashen, Aaryonar, Feshlak, Dagarn, (and maybe Kreizenn, I forget for sure), which was more of an inconvenience to us, but of course, the emergency patch was announced late on the 2nd day of our raid (not several days before).
There are 3 guilds that are NToV capable right now, and I think Vindication is due their turn should they want it. ML restarting after a scheduled patch is going to hold up the other guilds that desire to kill in NToV.
Andaas, as I posted in another thread, Vulak and Vyemm have not even respawned yet because of the duration of *your* raid.
We will be coming back after the patch to finish the job, since they still haven't spawned.
Screw the loot, it's about clearing the zone. And we are going to get our opportunity.
It's not our fault it took you so long to clear them.
Do you want to discuss shortening the alotted time from now on? Is 7 days too long?
Rohaise, did ML clear all remaining spawns barring Vyemm and Vulak that hadn't respawned? After reading your post here, I logged Andaas in to ToV and checked a few NToV spawns with my pet - I found Lady Nevedaria, Cekenar, and Zlexak still alive as of this writing.
Since these dragons are still alive *before* the patch, it hardly seems that the Hoss raid has delayed ML's ability to get to Vyemm and Vulak, since you still have several dragons remaining to kill - unless you intended to run your raid right up until 3 am pacific to kill them all.
ML's initial request for NToV was to "test the waters". That post was later edited stating ML would be there a week (which I had not seen until today after reading Baramos post).
Considering that Quintall edited his post 6 days after the initial post, there is no way anyone in this forum would have thought to re-read that post (as edits don't get flagged as new posts).
So basically, ML drops a surprise on everyone that they are going to continue clearing NToV again post patch, after clearing 9 of 15 dragons. I don't see how this is fair to the other guilds that desire to hunt here, nor how it is fair to another guild who may have already made plans post patch.
Oh, and just so you know, Hoss has had NToV raids cut short due to scheduled patches as well. When those happened, we stepped aside after clearing 9 to 12 of the named so that Vindication could take a shot - this includes the previous times we had cleared all but Vyemm and Vulak.
*edit* As of 11:46 pm pacific, Lady N, Zlex, and Cekenar are all still alive and well. Please explain again how Hoss delayed ML's ability to kill Vulak before the patch?
You're right, it is about clearing the zone - and ML will get their chance to clear the zone in due time like everyone else. Please don't forget that Vindication has been itching to get back into NToV as well, and they ended up getting shot into the back of the rotation due to scheduling conflicts. Due to scheduled patches, Hoss had to back out of 2 very successful NToV raids because we had an informal agreement with Vindication at the time so that neither of us would hog the zone. Vindication was doing NToV for 3 days leading up to the last patch, Hoss took the zone on the following patch, and ML picked up respawn (more of which spawned than was killed in 3 days). I think its fair to let the next in line take their turn.Quote:
Screw the loot, it's about clearing the zone. And we are going to get our opportunity.
This is very simple.
ML did NOT get a full spawn to clear because of the patch happening before Hoss's kills respawned.
A rotation slot ensures a chance to kill a full spawn.
Therefore, ML will be back after the patch to kill our full spawn as promised by IGB rules.
As for whether things would have been different if Vulak or Vyemm *had* spawned, that point is moot, because 1) they did not, 2) we still only had 3 days because of the "Emergency" (DAoC) patch change, and 3) you are forgetting the hours lost due to Hoss purposely training (yes we have screenshots, logs, and petitions to prove it) our people at the ToV entrance with Sontalak and Esorpa.
I don't understand this sort of terrorism on your part, forcing us to delay our raid by training us. You then claim we did could not have even killed Vyemm and Vulak had they spawned *which they did not* because we had other dragons to kill - which were delayed by your trains.
ML will be back in ToV after the patch to complete our turn in the rotation, of a FULL spawn, not a half spawn waiting on dragons to repop from a 7 day long Hoss raid.
The only solution I see to this is limiting raids to 3-4 days, which was proposed early by Vindication, but then shot down by Hoss.
For now, the 70+ camped ML will be continuing our ToV North raid on Monday afternoon after the patch, as planned, and scheduled, and agreed to here according to the IGB rules. If rotation rules for this zone are decided to be in need of a change, then let's continue to discuss until we come up with a mutually reasonable solution.
But it would be completely unfair to change the existing rules until the current rotation period has completed.
Hoss got their emergency patch.
ML got our emercency patch.
And heck, by golly maybe even Vindication will get an emergency patch.
In fact, it's fairly obvious that until someone is capable of clearing the zone in a single day (never), EVERY guild that is up before a patch will either: 1) Get some double spawns, or else 2) be screwed out of the best dragons in the zone.
So how will we handle this?
I don't know the answer yet, that's what we're here to discuss. But whatever the solution let's make sure it's fair to all guilds on the rotation by allowing a full rotation to complete before making changes.
My first inclination is to have a sub-rotation for those times that we know not all dragons will spawn before a patch.
Primary rotation for full spawn, and a secondary rotation for partial pre-patch spawns. The only thing that can break this is a true emergency patch with no warning, which can be counted in the secondary rotation after it has occured.
That means Vindication is up for the next full spawn after ML's.
Vindication is also up for the next partial spawn.
Thoughts?
My thoughts on this are simple:
ML originally requested NToV for the weekend, and quietly changed their tune *BEFORE* even committing and/or agreeing to my proposal of NToV rotation rules.
Although I did just see that Quintall's post in that thread on 9/24 did mention spending more time in NToV than the originally requested weekend - I guess I missed that too (possibly because it was also edited same-day).Quote:
We're still thinking about this, in Mythic.
It appears to be reasonable, at first glance.
We're going to take our Oct 5 turn in ToV before we commit to anything, however.
Having no experience there, yet, we want to get the lay of the land.
Baramos
Believe it or not, other people PLANNED around ML's being in that zone for only the weekend, as originally proposed. When the patch was first planned for Tuesday morning, I had planned on taking Hoss into NToV on Monday night to do some pre-patch clean up, if there was anything around. Vindication I'm sure made plans to start in NToV following the patch (originally Tuesday, now Monday).
I suppose ML will be out of NToV after the emergency patch Wednesday though, since that will unfortunately hinder the following guild's schedule to start NToV on the 8th day after your raid started.
Please also note that Hoss made sure that the NToV spawns were up and available for your raid this weekend - yes, several of them spawned during the afternoon and evening today, however, those spawns were indeed up before ML was ready to kill them (the fact that all 5 of the back dragons were up before any were killed tonight proves this fact to me).
While Vindication doesn't have a scheduled starting date for NToV (since it was patch dependant in their eyes), they will now be required to wait until the 15th to begin their raid -- their raid should technically start no later than the 12th, and in my opinion, on patch day.
Regarding trains into ToV - I don't know a thing about it, was out of town this weekend. I did read your post Rohaise, and I will comment that Esorpa is not a static spawn, Esorpa patrols through the ToV scar, but tends to get stuck on the rock at the end of the scar. Why you would think that Esorpa being trained into ToV something unusual is beyond me, as I have been attacked by this dragon while running just outside of the ToV zone structure on multiple occasions.
Hoss has suffered many deaths at the ToV zone from being trained by people of all the major guilds here. Hoss has also suffered the same deaths (and insane video lag), when returning to our bind point in the middle of an ML Sontalak raid (just the buffing stage too, heh). Although you guys did buff Parak once on a Sont raid, I think he appreciated that.
We didn't quietly change anything.
We posted here, September 24, that we'd be staying the whole week.
No one objected. If you didn't read the post, if you missed it, that's just tough shit. That edit was done 10 days prior to us going in there.
Look, every single time ML starts doing an area that had been previously a monopoly by Hoss or Hoss +, you guys scream and whine.
Grow up. I'm sick of you crap. If you want to make the server FFA keep it up.
We're going in, as planned, as posted.
Baramos
1) Monday's patch is hardly an emergency patch as it was posted near a week ago, well before your raid started. I posted on October 3rd that there would be a patch. Clearly this is not a surprise to you.
2) Despite your logs and petitions of our *assumed* intentional training, even the GM denied that it was intentional. Despite your efforts to tattle us off the server, we were not punished, as in the eyes of the GM, we did nothing wrong. We are not responsible for delaying your raid.
3) In the future when you edit a post to change your plans one week after you have written the post, please be kind enough to bump it or flag it otherwise so that everyone here does not need to make a habit of reading every single post ever made on these boards every day, in case something has been editted well after it was originally posted.
4) So as per your posts, re-edited on September 24th, we can expect you out of NToV after the 12th of this month?
5) Your call us terrorists, yet threaten to make the server FFA. I would think the comment "grow up" does not apply to Hoss alone.
Sirensa -
Pot. Kettle. Black.
Awhile back, you threatened the other guilds on this board with training if you couldn't get CoH to the entrance of ToV.
Since that idiotic post of yours, we've made it a habit to always offer CoH to Hoss and any other guild.
Regardless, you still made good on your threat to train us.
Don't give me that BS about what the server GM said. You could have avoided it with a simple tell. Instead you trained us.
Pathetic.
In my mind its clear that you were, once again, tired of the "fucking zergs" (your favorite phrase) getting into the territory that you'd urinated all over. So, you took some petty revenge.
Get used to us. The "fucking zergs" are gonna be all over ToV North, and hiving in PoM, too.
Have a good day.
Baramos
Look, if you cannot say anything without resorting to filth and potty talk, maybe you should not say anything at all?
Pot. Kettle. Black.
It really is unfortunate that relations have progressed to a point that we cannot even speak to each other without cursing. Unfortunate that even accidents are treated as intentional acts of malicious slaughter.
Sirensa -
You are a liar and have been proven to be a liar on this board more than once.
Furthermore, your propensity for foul language is known server-wide. I've seen some disgusting logs of your conversations with other guilds threatening them with FFA and training using every nasty, filthy word imaginable.
You may convince some folks that you didn't mean to train anyone.
You may point to the server GM's "decision."
Doesn't change the fact that you're full of it.
Baramos
Again..
Pot. Kettle. Black.
Now can we get past the name calling and work here or would you like to continue your childish antics?
No name-calling going on. Just a recitation of the facts as I see them.
No more work to be done here.
ML is going to be in NToV.
Our goal is Vulak. With the potential new MOB changes, as of this patch we may not get there.
Mythic Legion doesn't have someone with bugged faction in NToV to run freely to see if any other changes have been made, either. Don't worry, we don't have any current plans to petition a GM about anyone else who does, either.
To be perfectly clear, however, if we make progress to Vyemm, Vulak by Friday, we intend to stay there and kill them, too, even if it means a couple more days.
Baramos
For the record.
Hoss and Vindication only make comment about ML moving into our "territory" because ML doesn't seem to respect the private agreements that were made between our guilds long ago toward these zones.
Do I agree that the 7 day raid period is a bit long for NToV? Sure. However, I still think it is fair for all involved, and believe it or not, I designed that rule with ML in mind, since you all were the newcomer to the zone.
We do in fact need to work something out with how patches are to be handled with an extended raid period like this. And while I do agree that the intent of "clearing the zone" is an important thing, I also feel that the success of a raid needs to be based on a percentage cleared/time spent and not on whether the raid still has more time remaining.
Hoss/Vindication originally chose to share NToV for the most part. You should have seen the fights we had over NToV when Hoss went in the first time, not quite as bloody as this, but there was a lot of fighting about it.
In the end, Vindication is the guild getting pushed aside in this situation. As I stated already, ML is not going to bend on this matter anyway, so lets put all this petty BS behind us about training, etc., and work towards a solution on how to handle mid-raid patches.
Vindication, I recommend that you post a planned raid date for NToV.
Well, Andaas has made a nice editorial, and then a proposal. I'll do the same.
And from the left, my "for the record" statement.
I think I've noted before, on this board, that any "secret-handshake" agreements between Hoss and any other guild are irrelevant, even if they extend back as far as the Stone Age.
I asked Hoss to post a proposed set of rules for ToV N long ago, because Vind had all but disappeared from the face of the server, and because Mythic Legion wanted to avoid any territorial nonsense.
We took those rules for a test run this week. Seems Hoss doesn't like their own rules.
Hoss can twist and turn and bob and weave all they want; fact of the matter is that (i) they proposed rules, and now don't want to live with them when it does not suit them and (ii) we gave Hoss the courtesy of starting over again on a patch. Five MOBs, eight MOBs, what's the difference as a matter of principle?
I'm tired of the hypocrisy of Hoss, coming on this board and talking about "fair play" when at one moment they'll point to the rules or talk about what a server GM said to cover their asses when they've acted dishonorably, and at another moment talk about general tenets of "fairness".
Hoss is the most two-faced guild on this server, in my opinion, having used many guilds on the server at one time or another, in some way, when they're short-handed.
In my personal opinion, the leaders of that guild, while intelligent, are nothing more than liars and users.
It's also my personal opinion that Andass, the self-proclaimed "fire starter because he's bored" also tries to obstruct ML's progress, at every opportunity. I expect he pulls the legs off of ants in his idle time, not playing EQ, too.
I think his post above, under the guise of "being good to Vindication" was just another example of this.
News Flash. ML isn't taking your shit anymore.
Ok. Editorial is over. Proposal commencing.
I agree with Andaas, and it's time to put this BS training behind us, make sure it doesn't happen anymore, and to continue to work on the very good initial proposal by Hoss, to ensure that every guild on the server has an established, agreed-upon, tested set of rules to work from when entering ToV N.
As per the other thread, ML will offer up any amendments for review by Sunday this week.
Baramos
My only comment Baramos is that ML had implied that you were going to "test the waters in NToV this weekend" and then post your thoughts on my proposal. Quintall made a change to his original NToV post with regards to ML extending their raid 6 days after his initial post - there was no way anyone else in this forum would be aware of that.
ML dropped a bomb on the other guilds involved yesterday by posting left and right that you would be in NToV the rest of the week. Nobody knew of this until your post yesterday.
I assumed that since ML hadn't agreed to my proposal as of yet, that you all had still planned on testing the waters, as I think others here thought as well.
As for "secret-handshakes", well, when only 2 guilds are involved with sharing a particular area, its a lot easier to discuss terms privately than dragging it out in this forum. Why bother 10 guilds with something that only concerns 2 - ML had made no visible intention to raid into NToV until posting their desire to raid on the weekend of October 5th, at which time the discussion was moved to this forum for all to take part in.
As previously stated, cut with name calling and slander, it has no place here.
Re: Andaas' NTOV Proposal -
Andaas' proposal of NTOV guidelines was just that. A proposal. One that was not agreed to and not made as a rule. There was very little mention of what happens on a patch that happens mid-raid except perhaps having an established guild step in to clear up leftovers.
If we took his proposal to the letter, which we should not, since it was not agreed to ,and is still being discussed, then ML has 7 days in a block to do all they can in NTOV - that leaves Monday-Thursday for them to finish their raid. You started last Friday, you claim to be finishing this Friday, works for me. Whatever.
You keep making comments that we are not abiding by the NTOV rules. What rules? Where is it promised you get a full spawn? That is what we have been trying to work out. Obviously we missed a key point in discussion regarding what to do when there is a scheduled or emergency patch. (Today's patch, while rescheduled, was certainly not an emergency patch as there was well over 24 hours notice that servers would be down and reset.)Quote:
A rotation slot ensures a chance to kill a full spawn.
Therefore, ML will be back after the patch to kill our full spawn as promised by IGB rules
Assume we are abiding by Andaas' proposal, then each guild is entitled to a 7 day rotation through the month of October, then restarting as a 4 day rotation in November. How is this an example of Hoss shooting down Vindication's idea?Quote:
ML will be back in ToV after the patch to complete our turn in the rotation, of a FULL spawn, not a half spawn waiting on dragons to repop from a 7 day long Hoss raid.
The only solution I see to this is limiting raids to 3-4 days, which was proposed early by Vindication, but then shot down by Hoss.
We took our 7 days, ML is taking 7 days, Vindication should be getting 7 days coming up as well. By that time we should be able to hammer out a fair proposal that everyone is willing to work with.
What I will press very hard for in our final draft of "NTOV rotation guidelines" is that each guild starts the raid with a 100% full pop, so that situations like this do not start in the future. If that means forcing each guild to finish their raid in 4-5 days to let things naturally respawn to full pop by the time it is the next guild's turn, then so be it. If we have to rotate respawn or half-cleared zones on a different rotation schedule than a full post-patch repop, or full spawn re-pop, then that might be something to consider as well.
I assume you read this forum.
September 24 we posted we'd be in there a week. Where do you think we got that idea? From your proposal, to be explicit.
ML had no intention to pull the wool over anyone's eyes. That's not how we operate. When we posted we were going in, Vindication wasn't even around.
The fact that you were unaware of a post we made on this board, clearly stating exactly what our intentions were 10 days before we went in there is not our fault, either.
Had someone else posted their intentions to go in there this week, you can believe I'd have jumped right up, and pointed to that post.
The reasons for Roh and I both posting yesterday, was because we'd heard the rumors that another guild would be coming in today, patch day, as if they hadn't seen our post.
We posted here to clear up that confusion.
Baramos
Sirensa -
I agree. We need to get a lot hammered out.
As to this specific raid, however, it is ML's intention to get to Vulak.
If we get to Friday night end, and have made significant progress to Vulak, we're going to continue and kill him, because we have EARNED the right to do so.
However, if we suck, and get our asses kicked all week, we'll get out after Friday.
Baramos