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Thread: MMORPG - Discussion

  1. #21
    EQ was great because it was a multiplayer game. Games today feel more like single player games. I can do a WoW instance and never say a word and have no problem whatsoever. That would simply never happen in EQ of old. People knew each other, players had reputations, there was so much drama, within guilds, and within servers, and even between servers. It made for a much more interesting game. In EQ, you felt wonder, you felt fear, you felt emotions. In WoW, I've never had any fear. I've never had a moment where I was like "WOW!" Now, a lot of that has more to do with how I've changed perhaps then how games are different. However, I think the reason EQ lingers on in some of us who played it a great deal was that it felt more like a real world we were all apart of for a few years, rather than just a game we played for awhile. I still consider a lot of people I've met in EQ as real friends and people I did not like as true asses that I would not give the time of day to if I met them in real life.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Kikiyo View Post
    That's nothing. FFXI was unsoloable after lvl 20 and you delevel.

    EQ was/is unsoloable about the time you hit level 5. Had exp loss after every death. Mobs did not leash unless you either died or ran to a zone line and zoned. By that reguards, anytime you zoned into a zone you had to take into your thinking that you could be zoning into a death train left by another player.

    If you were anyone other than a Wizard you had to bind in a city. When you died you popped up at your bind location, gear free, very much alive with no line drawn to where you corpse was. And a reduced exp bar. Sure you could try and find a Cleric or Paladin to rez you. But most times, that wasn't gonna happen. If your body happened to be somewhere you couldn't get to and no one would help or could help. You lost all your gear, your money, and the exp you had before that death.

    If you happened to get into a death loop of where ever your were bound a mob popped your undressed body everytime you popped up you could have multiples bodies that would then need to be rezed in the right order so you could get your exp back. Oh and you didn't get all the exp back either from a rez. I think the best anyone could do and this was later was 94%?

    Needless to say. No one wanted to die so you were constantly hyperaware.

    Then anyone along the way that you ran past got said mobs and the circle continued. If you were a caster and needed to gain mana. You had to sit down with your spell book open which took the entire screen up so you could not see if something was coming or not.

    Getting mana back was / is a huge deal. There was no other way to get it back then by meding. And meding took a fucking lot of time. There were/are no health pots/mana pots/damage pots/ etc etc etc...
    Ab alio spectes alteri quod feceris






  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Valdis View Post
    I will say the single player RPGs I have played, I won't get into how many cause it's honestly frightening how many days on that genre alone I have lost, always appealed for the reasons you talked about. Granted the story generally pushed you in the correct direction where as it sounds like EQ was more of a hey go figure the whole thing out sorta feel. But I loved finding the various side quests and unlocking areas and finding if I talked to this one guy then 20 hours later when I got to this one area I would be rewarded with something.

    I also know what you mean about the sense of adventure/danger I remember in the Elder Scroll series what it would be like when you would be wandering the woods and it would hit night time and all of a sudden it goes from a peaceful completely easy place to of fuck I need a town now.

    I do really wish more MMO's would leave that sense of danger in, although I do remember having that sensation in my very early WoW days like when I found Burning Steppes the first time... I would also like more of the hidden quests to finally show back up, similar to the Linken quest line in Un'Goro except more hidden and more difficult.

    However unless there is no client I don't think that will ever truly be the case again. Lets face it place like curse, wowhead, thottbot and allakhazam probably did more harm to the way you play MMO's then the simplifying that WoW did.

    By allowing mods, blizzard opened the door to those sites.
    Ab alio spectes alteri quod feceris






  4. #24
    Administrator Andaas's Avatar
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    My Manastone still works!
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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Andaas View Post
    My Manastone still works!

    But you can only use it in old world zones...
    Ab alio spectes alteri quod feceris






  6. #26
    I miss my old manastone. Amazing how good that thing was. Especially mid boss fight, haha, those were some good times, before they nerfed them.

  7. #27
    Things I hated though were arenas. Casters by the time SoL hit were screwed. All the gear had major resists to everything on it. Plus all spells were nerfed to 70% of their damage in pvp. I'm told in Vanilla EQ this wasn't the case. But by the time SoL rolled around it was pretty impossible to even land a spell on anyone. That was something I liked about WoW. Even though they screwed everything up by just handing out gear to folks that wanted to afk in battle grounds later on.
    Ab alio spectes alteri quod feceris






  8. #28
    This is also true in reverse with EQ. You felt insignificant initially, but as you built your reputation and as you got to know people and became a better player, people would recognize your efforts, and in turn make you feel more significant. The community within the game would know who you were within the game and that made it all the more satisfying an experience. You also enjoyed the accomplishments you made. Getting the first Cleric Clicky on server was quite a rush, and not something you forget about the next day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andaas View Post
    With all that said above, I have NEVER had that feeling of being so insignificant in any MMO since EQ. EQ started me out as an ant in a world of giants; WoW lost most of that on me - I have never been in awe in an area, been scared about wandering off on my own... if something chases me I can just run away and it gives up.

  9. #29
    Hoss Officer / WoW Mystrae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lonskils View Post
    things i hated though were arenas. Casters by the time sol hit were screwed. All the gear had major resists to everything on it. Plus all spells were nerfed to 70% of their damage in pvp. I'm told in vanilla eq this wasn't the case. But by the time sol rolled around it was pretty impossible to even land a spell on anyone. That was something i liked about wow. Even though they screwed everything up by just handing out gear to folks that wanted to afk in battle grounds later on.
    manaburn!!!

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystrae View Post
    manaburn!!!

    They nerfed it to the point that the AA wasn't even worth taking. Sigh.
    Ab alio spectes alteri quod feceris






  11. #31
    Hawt Dorf Incarnation 3.0 Kakeku's Avatar
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    Playing EQ was a magical experience. It has much better sense of community and somewhat it become part of life. Although WoW has much better graphics and game mechanics, it is just another game.

  12. #32
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    I was just thinking how much of the sense of danger that you didn't feel in WoW at the beginning was due to the graphics? If WoW had started as a darker more serious and more realistic game such as EQ2, Aion or Rift would you have felt more danger in places like the N.Elf starting zone when you were told to kill the named spider in the deep part of that cave? I remember some of those 1-6 lvl quests actually feeling hard on day 1. However the cartooniness completely works against any sense of danger, the most you usually get is appreciation for some of the cool, beautiful, and or well designed models.

  13. #33
    Administrator Andaas's Avatar
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    Personally, I don't feel fear running around in Rift. Not that I feel safe, it's just not scary. I think much of that is due to death being merely an inconvenience. When you die, you're a ghost and can safely recover -- the simple fact of making a corpse run in EQ placed you with no gear hoofing it back to wherever you may have died.

    Sure, when I was level 7 and made my way to North Karana - I got lucky aside from my encounter with the bandits; but had I died way out there, I may have lost everything (not that I had much - but again, I also didn't realize I could lose everything yet).. because I was very new to the game and didn't know people outside of my level range, none of whom had gone out that far yet.
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  14. #34
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    EVE: Online you should feel afraid wandering too far off the beaten path. Seems to be the only current MMO that is willing to punish you if you really fuck up. If you lose your ship, you have to buy a new one, if you die after losing your ship, you have to buy a new clone, if you die again without rebuying your clone, there is a very real possibility of having years worth of work vanish

    Sure the NPCs don't follow you around, but there is always a fleet of players willing to hunt everyone in sight down.

  15. #35
    A Hero of the Seven Suns Torrid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valdis View Post
    I was just thinking how much of the sense of danger that you didn't feel in WoW at the beginning was due to the graphics? If WoW had started as a darker more serious and more realistic game such as EQ2, Aion or Rift would you have felt more danger in places like the N.Elf starting zone when you were told to kill the named spider in the deep part of that cave? I remember some of those 1-6 lvl quests actually feeling hard on day 1. However the cartooniness completely works against any sense of danger, the most you usually get is appreciation for some of the cool, beautiful, and or well designed models.
    Uh, no. WoW has zero danger. In EQ, if you're careless enough, you could die and be unable to reach your corpse and lose all of your gear. Realistically this won't happen on a mature server however, but I do recall a warrior losing all his gear in the Plane of Fear once because the zone wasn't cleared in 7 days on my original server.

    Hell, a couple of weeks ago I zoned into Fear on my druid to see if the zone was spawned (which it was) and had to wait until the next day to loot my corpse after it was cleared. Also when my group was one grouping Hate, we had no wizard. So if the cleric couldn't camp out, we had to find an available wizard to port us up again, and then we had to dodge 30 minute respawn roamers once we were up there.

    A more realistic scenario, however, is dying in the middle of a dungeon and needing to clear it to get your corpses. Invis (which has a random duration and may drop at any time with little warning) works in most dungeons, and even if it doesn't you can get a high level player to drag your corpses, but in the early days there were no high levels sitting around waiting to help you.

    Running through Beholder's Maze before you have bind or invis or sow will put some hair on your nuts. Aggro a mob, and you're dead. Enjoy the run back from Qeynos.

    From level one you have to watch out for aggressive high level mobs and con everything because you can't solo yellows yet. In Tox I was pulling mobs to the wall to avoid adds instead of merely charging up to mobs and killing them mindlessly. From level ONE.

  16. #36
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    I think you misunderstood it's not that I think WoW has any true danger to it, it's that on top of that lack, the art itself also demonstrates that lack.

  17. #37
    Hoss / EQ & WoW Forty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valdis View Post
    I think you misunderstood it's not that I think WoW has any true danger to it, it's that on top of that lack, the art itself also demonstrates that lack.
    I dunno, in WoW you attack a mob and it dies pretty quickly. You still have over half health and never really feel threatened. In EQ, that same fight would have you down to near death with each spell or swing of a weapon making a difference on whether you lived. So for me, the graphics really don't play a part in the sense. It was the constant "omg swing the F%%^ing sword" as you dipped below 20 health.

  18. #38
    I'm going to wave my epeen around a bit here as well, and say that for fear of death I don't have to look to MMOs. I just have to load up a roguelike such as nethack, crawl, or adom, which have full permadeath. The smallest mistake will make you start over from scratch, and even if you play perfectly the randomness will still find a way to screw you over. In particular, adom took me a good part of a year to beat, with death count (meaning, full restarts) in the the thousands.

    The only fear that I've had in MMOs is the fear of failure. The fear of being the weakest link in a strategy that requires my full concentration. If I died, I couldn't care less about the penalties as they pale in comparison to the aforementioned. My real penalty would only be the embarrassment of screwing something up royally and costing others enjoyment of the game and their time.

  19. #39
    PANTS!!!!!! Aindayen's Avatar
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    Mana robe and wizard epic meant mana forever!

    Killing a boss 23 times for 1 piece of your epic hoping to God it dropped.

    Zoning into an area knowing you could lose all of your gear because nobody could help you get it back. PoF was fing nasty...

    Ain

  20. #40
    Hoss's Resident Historian Gheltire's Avatar
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    my initial fear in EQ was pretty much the same as everyone else who played that game before it evolved: death

    we hated to die, hated to re run everywhere to find our gear, and then we hated the people who hated to die who trained us causing us to die at zoneins/outs...and THEY were the bastards


    However, I dont think its easy death recovery that makes us not "tune" into these games anymore

    Its the evolution of the MMOs from "HAIL" and /g conversations to "!" and the pure silence that is roger wilco/vent.


    Cyrendel, myself, Kathris can jump into either the hoss server or Cyr's vent server and talk there. Ive got no need to talk to anyone. I solo most of the time (or duo/trio with those two in Rift). At best Ill say thx if someone buffs me or someone saves my ass in an event. But Im not lore questing or trying to feel people out to see if I want to join up with them, because I dont. SO I sit in an empty vent room waiting for one of my friends to show up.

    Im older. Im established as a gamer (in my mind) since Ive been playing em for over a decade. So I might actually be a gamer snob, not liking the wow newbies, eschewing what look like camps because ive been there done that, and pretty much just doing the "leave me alone Ive already got friends" thing while I level.

    How many of us actually participate in random game OOC? I dont. Because thats where people fight over the economy, Obama, sports, and sexual braggadocio. If its not "selling at the third torch" we tune it out


    Case in Point:
    DCUO
    Im in a raid. Were lvl 25. 5 of us are ready to kill an OMAC boss (or something) and one of the party members asks "ok is everyone ready?"

    I literally had to jump up and down in front of him because I couldnt do the usual / to bring up my chat window (its enter!). I made it to lvl 25 in the game, had obtained relatively good gear for a gadget character to have soloed all the content except for raids, and COULDNT SPEAK TO ANYONE

    The new games, wow included, are console mentality driven, and meant to let you socialize in verbal, not text, means. We can easily replace each other with Kainen478_g and as long as he can assist, heal, or tank, we dont care. Could be Black Ops, could be meeting stones, its AI that can talk. Who wants to know them?

    Used to be, I felt it was impolite to leave a party.

    Wow taught me that once something is dead, if im still standing there typing /g Im in a solo party and everyone is outlevelling me

    Now Im the first to drop a public raid.


    The aelfwar event last night I actually had that blood rise that I havent had in years. I jumped into OOC to give a location of a sentinel. Waited until multiple people jumped into the area before picking out assist targets to keep mobs off of casters. Even kited! (btw the fact that my head tracks my target while I move is just awesome!). I died once, backed off, became tangible, and got hit with 3-4 buffs before I could even resummon my pet.

    Maybe I put more in, maybe it drew me in, but I had that feeling last night that it got me to be social.

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