Future of the IGB

[Elistrae-L`malla]

Well, as you all know Vindi decided to jump our NToV rotation mobs early yesterday afternoon, and at the same time, declared themselves off rotations and going FFA, as if there was any doubt by their actions. Later that evening they killed IG's Tormax rotation.
While the IGB could maybe have held with just opne rogue guild, Hoss also declared their favor of FFA, on all but NToV. Which really is interesting considering that Andaas had told several of us that Hoss would pull Vulak to zone in if they got the chance while we were fighting with Vindi. Thus I question Hoss's commitment to the IGB, which they host. Let alone they knew vindi's intentions but denied it, nor did they seek to prevent it or notify us.
Thus, it is my thought that for the time being the IGB cannot function, and maybe never will again. Lines have already been drawn. You wanted FFA vindi, congratulations, you have it, but your near-sightedness will only end up costing you dearly in the end. Your "sneak attack" will only work once, I hope you enjoyed it, because I promise you, it is the last time you will catch us off guard.
As for the IGB, I would like to see it reestablished in the future, but I am not so naive to think it will function as long as Vindi exists. The IGB was built on trust, and it was torn down in one action.
There are more guilds than just us and Vindi on the IGB, and L`malla is not one to act for selfish reasons. If the IGB has any hope of working again, we will need the cooperation of the other guilds, and that means input here and now. In game tells or on these boards. Consider carefully... this is the future of YOUR server at stake.

[Andaas]

I'm unsure as to where you got the idea that Hoss "declared our favor of FFA".

I was at the zone of ToV yesterday after hearing rumors the night before that Vindication was planning on going FFA. Hoss was not involved in what was happening, but I wanted to be there to see how the events unfolded.

I was also encouraging Ramhorn, an officer of L`Malla, to take positive action instead of sitting idly at the zone. He did not take that advice, which is more than likely what cost L`Malla getting to Vulak yesterday. Had you chosen to be proactive given the circumstances, you wouldn't have had to coh 70 people back for Vyemm and been pressured for time, while Vindication was already set up and ready to go.

Vindication broke no rules established by Verant - they only broke the rules and trust of the membership of this forum. Those are not rules that Verant has any authority over.

As for the position of Hoss in all of this. Well, I'm honestly not sure if the established IGB rules will be effective with one guild running FFA. In that environment, the sole FFA guild will be at a great advantage over all others.

I am open to suggestions on how to proceed from here, but as I see it, our options are limited.

[Rohaise]

I suggest that the first step taken is to remove all Vindication accounts from this forum.

They quit the IGB, so remove them immediately.

Then we can discuss how we are going to deal with them and return the server to an acceptable state.

[Dlgoth Riknueth]

Andaas, if Hoss hasn't gone FFA along with Vindi, you might want to mention to some of your players not to post things such as "stop complaining about FFA and deal with it" like some of your members are doing on public boards such as Druzzil-Ro... Just about every Hoss member posting there has given the impression that FFA is good and that ya'll will adapt to it.

[Lylala]

I don't believe the IGB can survive under these conditions. How would things be maintained with a FFA guild on server able to do whatever/whenever? I don't see a way that us guilds who are still learning how to do certain mobs would receive a fair chance with a FFA guild breathing down our necks waiting for us to fail.

I personally think it is sad. Many of us now will probably never have the chances we would have had with the IGB in place. At least with IGB, we were given the respect to be allowed a chance to fail. Now we aren't even allowed that if the FFA guild doesn't want us to have it.

If I find that I cannot enjoy this game or plan anything fun for our guilds future because of one selfish group of players, then so be it. EQ is still only a game. They can have it. I won't be around to see this server go to shit. I see that happening and I'm outta here. I don't pay money each month for someone else to see and do it all.

[Andaas]

Originally posted by Lylala
I don't see a way that us guilds who are still learning how to do certain mobs would receive a fair chance

The above statement is probably about 99% of the reason that the FFA model appeals to a fair percentage of members from all the top guilds on Druzzil Ro. The IGB system makes it far too easy for any guild to be added in to any rotation, taking away from the guilds that forged into that area first.

The only way to "fix" the IGB, would be to devise a method of running the IGB in a manner that allows a sufficient amount of exclusivity on certain spawns to the 1st guild(s) to break the new ground, while still allowing an up and coming guild an occasional shot at the same spawn (but not enough freedom that they can easily learn their way).

Of course, its probably too little too late at this point. But just airing out the ideas anyway. /shrug

[Rohaise]

The above statement is probably about 99% of the reason that the FFA model appeals to a fair percentage of members from all the top guilds on Druzzil Ro.

"fair percentage"?

I think ML has 3 or 4 members who want a FFA.

That's probably 2% of my guild.

The other 98% prefer a rotation.



Andaas, have you removed Vindication's access yet? I'd like to begin discussing how to deal with this.

If you don't want to cooperate with this effort, I can certainly form a new IGB in a neutral ground, instead of this Hoss-controlled environment, as I proposed several months ago when Seekers collapsed (but you and Vindication opposed).

ML is not going to sit around while Hoss twiddles its thumbs over this.

[Rezz]

Personally, as long as Vindication's access is cut, this board is still pretty "neutral"

Regardless, I can only see a couple ways to make the rotations remain rotated, and as such remove a lot of the stress of FFA. First, and no offense to anyone on those rotations, I think we need to remove Sev, the unrotated ubers, trak and rage from the IGB and move it to Druzzil. if basically every guild with any interest is posting on Druzzil about these spawns, may as well move the entire thing there.

I also think that we do need a level of reservation on the higher end spawns. When a new uber rotation is added, you can join, but if you pass or fail (lack of effort to pursue or unable to accomplish the goal) you are out of the rotation for 2 full rotations of that spawn. This will prevent people who know they don't have the power at the time but think they will in the future from tying up spawns that are obviously beyond their reach (no offense to anyone) at the current time. This would be in addition to having to wait a full rotation before your turn comes up after being added.

Note, the above rule is specifically for guilds trying spawns that they have not proven they can kill, ie, not on the current rotations.

I also think we need to streamline the passing on spawns so that we don't lose 5 hours from finding out a mob is spawned before a guild attempts it, giving less time for Vindication to gank mobs they don't feel they should have to share.

How about when you find out a mob is up, you notify the guild that is currently up on the rotation, post here what time you notifed the guild (aim for officers and IGB reps.. otherwise random_member01 won't know what's up and this gets screwed up) If the mob is alive and unengaged after an hour, the next guild in line gets notified, if they don't think they can kill, they pass, so forth and so on till one of the guilds on the rotation gets out there and kills it. If None of the guilds currently on said rotation have the power to kill it and everyone passes, it becomes semi-ffa in that whatever guild gets the power to drop it first gets the spawn. But, to retain the level of fairness, that guild is considered to have traded with whatever guild was currently up. This is so that we don't have dragons and stuff sitting around all day ripe for Vind to whack.

NToV.. I honestly forsee 2-3 guilds in there at a time, and probably huge deadlocks with one guild standing at the last dragon alive and the rest sitting near Vulak. I think we are gonna see lots of GM interaction in that zone, mebbe it'll force em to split the server ^_^

Any feedback on this would be appreciated, and if we can all keep our collective fears from interfering with common sense and waking the sleeper, that would be nice too ;p

[Andaas]

Forget the pipe dream of getting the server split -- it won't happen, Druzzil Ro is nowhere near one of the most crowded servers. Verant won't cater to a server with too many top end guilds.

I'll remove access from Vindication's reps for the time being. After there has been some time for this to be discussed and things are figured out, I will possibly re-add them to this forum.

The reason their access was not removed as of yet is that this forum is intended for a lot more than just spawn rotations. This is supposed to be a place to settle provlems among guilds as well. Anyway... cutting their access now.

*edit* Vindi access removed for Ciner, Wyvern, Sinar, Coquetry, Inizen.

[Grazel_VE]

EQ is supposed to be a game. Its supposed to be fun.

Getting leapfrogged is not fun. Constantly watching your back is not fun. Expecting to be trained by a rogue guild is not fun.

There is only one way to rationally handle limited spawns. That is by cooperation. Rotations are by far the easiest form of cooperation. In-game negotiations every night take a lot more time and are not fun. We all know that. That's how rotations came about in the first place.

The argument that its too easy for guilds to get on rotation does not hold water. Look at the current rotation lists. Only three of them have more than six guilds on them. Most have only 3 or 4.

Further, the largest rotation (Ragefire) Vindi doesn't even care about! We had to insitute the 2-day Naggy rule because VINDI couldn't be bothered to take one hour to buff an open Naggy raid, and the rotation bogged down on their turn, TWICE.

To be blunt, the Vindi leaders are simply immature. As shown clearly by the Ragefire roation, they want the benefits provided by cooperation, but are unwilling to put in their part of the bargain. Do we want these these children to determine the future of DRo? Or do we bite the bullet and take the steps neccesary to put them back in their playpen?

IMO, the only thing FFA has to offer is titillation to those who like seeing people get ganked. FFA DOES NOT PROVIDE MORE LOOT FOR YOUR GUILD. Any extra spawns you think you'll get will be more than offset by getting trained by pissed off people, time wasted in CRs, time wasted having to camp spawns, time wasted monitoring other guilds, etc etc.

Vindication has openly posted they will leapfrog and train anyone who contests a spawn. There ARE things we can do about that, but its going to take some backbone and work. For example, last night's Tunare exploit should have been screenshotted and reported.

I, AND EVERYONE ELSE IN VE, STRONGLY BELIEVE THAT COOPERATION IS FAR FAR BETTER THAN FFA.

[Grazel_VE]

BTW, I find it interesting Vindi decided to start their FFA.

- All anon
- Waited for Quint to be out of town
- Ganked from IG and LMalla first (didnt have the balls to go up against Hoss or ML, had to pick on someone smaller firstc)
- Had to exploit Tunare, couldnt do it straight up

None of these things have generated any respect in me.

[Elistrae-L`malla]

In point of fact, they chose us because they know the majority of us have RL commitments during the day, and they knew we wouldn't be able to field the necessary force, so they could use PnP garbage, which is exactly what this board was intended to prevent.
As for small, I am not sure what you mean by small. If small means killing every rotation mob, except for tormax, which we would have been attempting for the first time soon after waiting for our turn to come around on rotation, I guess so
As for going against ML, you may remember Vindi's all out war on ML rotation spawns a while back.
Just some clarifications

[Grazel_VE]

By small i just meant a step or two behind hoss/ml/vind. Nothing implied about size or anything else. Since Vindi probably wanted to start with an NToV gank, it stands to reason they'd gank from the newest guild on that rotation.

[Baramos1]

Hey Andaas -

You wrote this:

*edit* Vindi access removed for Ciner, Wyvern, Sinar, Coquetry, Inizen.

What about Ubar?

You don't say you removed access from all Vindication reps. Did you?

I doubt it.

Folks, this is just more of Andaas's BS. He pushed Vind to FFA, backed them in private discussions, allowed them to continue reading this board.

He represents Hoss, and he's a lying piece of shit. Typical Hoss material.

Bara

[Andaas]

Actually Baramos, when I learned tonight that Vindi still had access to this forum from Wyvern, I was trying to puzzle out who it was I had missed.

If you check the thread of known IGB reps in the archives, you will see that I removed all of the reps I had listed there. Sorry, people are human and do make mistakes (oh wait, ML doesn't make mistakes).

[Baramos1]

Liar.

[Andaas]

User access to this forum is granted on a user by user basis. I have to look through the user list of 467 members (based on todays registered members), and pick out who has access and remove it.

So fuck if I missed 1 name.

Don't call me a liar, I removed all known Vindication users access from this forum as I posted I did.

Like it even matters at this point, since you all have said that Hoss is now "tainted", and you will no longer trust us. Life goes on.

Peace.

[Lylala]

Originally posted by Andaas

The only way to "fix" the IGB, would be to devise a method of running the IGB in a manner that allows a sufficient amount of exclusivity on certain spawns to the 1st guild(s) to break the new ground, while still allowing an up and coming guild an occasional shot at the same spawn (but not enough freedom that they can easily learn their way).

Of course, its probably too little too late at this point. But just airing out the ideas anyway. /shrug

I thought we already had certain 'stepping' stones...like need to prove you can kill mob A before you can be allowed on the rotation for mob B? What you suggest here sucks ROYALLY. I realise that NI isnt among the very 'top' guilds of Druzzil yet...YET. We sure would like the chance to get to that point though. I and the other officers of NI have worked our collective asses off trying to keep this guild afloat whileall of the now 'former' officers/members seemed to be doing everything they could to tear it apart. We've come a LONG way since October, and I'd really like for us to get the chance to keep moving forward and not get halted by childish games. None of your concern I know, so back to my point...

How many times did Hoss try each mob before they got it down to a science? Are we to believe that you got each new mob dead instantly, first try each time? Damn, it must've been so nice to keep trying over and over, maybe even for several days until ya got it down! Yes, NI is currently on 2 rotations that we haven't been able to kill yet...Klandicar and CT. We tried, we failed, we alerted the next guild inline. Who did it hurt for us to try Klandicar twice on Saturday? We always try to be very respectful of the other guilds in a rotation and let them know immediately if we know we're not going to make a kill.

Guess my main point is, NI didnt spend the better part of 3 months gluing the mess back together, and the last 3 months getting steadily stronger and stronger, to get to this point and suddenly get told "You can only play with the toys that we don't need, and that you've already figured out. If it's a new toy for you, too bad...you'll never get the chance to learn it."

This is just very sad to me.

[Baramos1]

Andaas -

You're full of shit.

Bara