Rift

[Torrid]

Whoa Whoa Whoa there Torrid. I seem to remember you dropping EQ as soon as you got into WoW beta.

Sure. And for what it's worth, I did feel a little bad about that. The thing was, EQ was in decline post PoP, and Uqua was a gigantic unfinished mess. I also got sick of the hybrid tanks not wanting to give up their mobs to defensive warriors and wiping to it repeatedly.

I like Rift because you can actually fear dying while leveling up for a change.

Wait, did they add a non-trivial death penalty since I played? I was just rounding up 4+ mobs at a time and AoEing them and not caring if I died in that game just like WoW when I played a few months ago. I would give fear of death as one reason why EQ is a superior game. I did not see it in Rift though.

the community you built from forced grouping. I miss it in a lot of ways. But I never really want to go back to having to sit around soloing or quad kiting mobs due to no groups.

As opposed to not grouping to the level cap in WoW and its clones? Quest based progression actually hiders grouping because friends or people you run into will be on different stages of the quest line. Forcing players to cooperate to overcome challenges is a cornerstone of MMOGs. What you have without that is a single player game.

I will say I do not miss corpse runs naked that took hours and hours out of actual game play.

Hours and hours? How are CRs taking anywhere near that long for you in a game where you can bind almost anywhere (let alone port) and invis actually works?

The sheer hours EQ required made it fun but unsustainable for me.

I took a magician from level 1 to 50 in 4 or 5 days played. We powerleveled our warrior from 44 to 50 in like 4 hours. Then we one grouped hateplane and got full planar in less than a week, playing maybe 3-5 hours a day. (hate respawn is 8 hours there)

EQ only takes an inordinate amount of time if you don't know what you're doing. You guys are remembering the game from when you were novices.

It never ceases to amaze me that people think that a huge tedious time sink is the same thing as hard.

EQ isn't hard because it's a time sink. (all games are time sinks, btw) It's hard because mobs don't leash. It's hard because you have to care about staying alive. It's hard because mobs are (generally) much tougher than players instead of the other way around. It's hard because dungeons are not isolated bubbles where you control every variable. It's hard because you need to create social bonds to succeed.

Hell most of the Hoss people only seem to like it because of the comaraderie not the game itself

The design of the game encouraged the socializing that created that comradery to begin with.

Everquest's design forged such lasting social bonds in it's players, that many of WoW's guilds are still organized around those bonds. Bonds formed in WoW and its clones are so weak that guilds originating in that game are nothing more than transient conveniences. The most successful guild on one of my WoW servers years ago was called SHARKS WIT LAZERS PEWPEW.

As much of a jackass as I am, I had the logins of about two dozen guildmates. None of them even so much as heard my voice, and accounts (especially ours) were worth thousands back then. EverQuest fostered trust; and in that game your social connections were worth far more than any piece of loot. How many logins do you have of your fellow WoW players?

Hoss was once one of top 10 guilds in all of EQ. We didn't get there by hating the game.

[Lonskils]

I'd love to see you round up a group of the elites that spawn all the time and aoe them and not fear death.

CR. I remember in UQUA especially how badly it sucked. EVERYTHING saw invis. and unlike my own invis that lasted 10 mins period. Everyone I cast it on could lose it within 5 seconds lol

I do, I dooooo doooo doooo still have fond memories of EQ. I just do not have the desire to go backwards and hope that as time goes by games will get better.

The Rift events are not some bubble you can control either btw.

The pop up on top of where other mobs spawn so there you are fighting the mobs from the rift and also have to avoid the other mobs.
Yes, you can solo most of the content group free. And I know you hate that.

I'd love to play a game with you again Torrid. I just don't know that I can go back to EQ, especially back to lvl 50 cap. Not with the game engine they still use.

[Andaas]

I think the "fear of death" Torrid is referring to is the fear of losing something (be it gear, experience, etc.). The current generation of games, pretty much everything since WoW took over, has simply caused you some minor inconvenience for death - be it a small recoup-able monetary charge (gear durability, or soul strength), or perhaps a very minor experience debt (didn't Vanguard try that?).

Death in EQ brought the potential risk of losing all your gear, experience LOSS (not debt...), and even level loss if you died enough.

Tonight in Rift, I died 8 times during a crazy invasion near Sanctum, it cost me SIX gold to bring my soul strength up from 20% to 100%. Oh noes!! Death was inconvenient, but certainly not scary.

[Valdis]

But again those things you lose from death don't make the game more difficult it just makes the game time consuming. It's like hardcore D2 its not a harder game it's just for people who don't mind redoing everything every couple months. Frankly for me anyhow needing to group to do just about anything just sucks. I like grouping for things like elite quests, instances, raids, public quests but if I have to group to level in a timely manner then I'm being limited to who I can find and how helpful they are, to which I say no thanks.

[Torrid]

But again those things you lose from death don't make the game more difficult it just makes the game time consuming.

Three words: Plane of Fear. Have Andaas explain that zone to you, he's good at that.

Penalties for failure allow developers to add alternate paths to victory by adjusting the risk and reward of each. Tactics such as AoE grouping should have an increased risk to them because the reward is so great. If there is no risk to anything then designers have to disallow high reward tactics entirely, leaving players with only the one expected method of defeating encounters, gaining exp, or what have you. Penalties also force you to consider your options carefully and to not goof around.

Not to mention, death penalties turn on the adrenal gland a bit. A game without risk is a boring game and make for hollow victories.

Frankly for me anyhow needing to group to do just about anything just sucks.

You're playing the wrong genre then. I recommend Oblivion, or maybe some console games.

If people are spending way too much time looking for a group, then what developers need to do is remove barriers to forming groups -- not remove grouping altogether.

[Syana]

Unfortunately, I don't think there will ever be a game like Everquest again.

Many players these days want the instant gratification too much. They want to reach the end game as soon as possible with as little effort as possible.

With how popular this genre is now, you will have a lot of players who want to be the "first" whatever. There will always someone who want to be at the top.

When Everquest was first introduced, raiding was non-existent. That term didn't exist yet. People were having fun just playing the game because there's no other like it. Many people, like me, love Everquest because it was their favorite MUD coming to life, so to speak. In fact, if I couldn't afford to play MMO's anymore, I'd probably just go back to playing MUD. -_- The most addictive element of RPGs have always been character development. That aspect of today's MMO's are somewhat diluted.

[Valdis]

But was their really risk to AE group killing, unless you got cocky or were stupid wasn't the true risk fairly minimal? Or unless the devs purposely built it to just be "undoable" but in that case we can go back to cocky...

Frankly you say I'm in the wrong genre, however the genre has advance since the days of EQ, I don't begrudge you your fond memories and fun times in it. I'll continue playing WoW and D3 and SC2 and my huge backlog of PS3, 360 and assuming the Wii can actually publish something worth playing outside the Virtual Console maybe that.

As others have said there will probably never be a game like EQ again and it's because frankly the major demographic is 25-35 now and frankly those of us in the demo have far better things to do then re-gear/level/whatever creative punishment they create. While it's an interesting exercise the fact is that just about every MMO since EQ has realize that the arbitrary punishment doesn't excite people it just pisses them off and that forcing constant grouping is just as aggravating. While you're certainly entitled to your opinion there aren't really any game developers left that agree with your draconian philosophies.

[Forty]

While you're certainly entitled to your opinion there aren't really any game developers left that agree with your draconian philosophies.

Only because they are going where the money is.

I guess it depends on your definition of hard on whether EQ was more difficult. In WoW, until you start doing 10- or 25-man raids there really isn't anything to make you care about what happens. You die, so what. You miss a quest, so what. Faction, whatever. Leveling is of little concern.

EQ made you care about all of those things, regardless of level. Soloing, grouping, questing all made you think and use your skills rather than just mindless plowing through it. Did that create time sinks? Sure. But that also created part of the challege that is sorely missing from WoW.

[Valdis]

I will certainly agree that WoW is probably the easiest MMO I have played. DC Universe may be slightly easier but it's not really the same kind of MMORPG. Either way EQs difficulty is the wrong kind in my eyes, while WoWs easiness is also not quite on the right track. Age of Conan and War probably could have been just about right if the publishers hadn't decided to push them out months if not a full year before they were ready...

I will say I'm interested what Rift will be at end game.

[Aindayen]

The time demand was a part of it. Being max level meant something.

I personally liked having gear that you could take to the next expansion. Having everyone get a clean slate every year sucks as it removes accomplishments or stuff that you would want to keep for some time. Quading was a bit more difficult in that most people couldn't solo certain mobs. So kiting 4+ mobs when a war say couldn't kill 1 solo was interesting. Being a cloth type meant any mistake and you were dead, but the exp/AA was nice. I miss the challenge. Now I have no reason to do such things as I have plenty of gold, and the can it be done interests me less, and less.

Personally I miss grouping for exp, or just hanging out pre/post raiding chilling while we bullshit/grind aa. These are the things that formed the bonds for me. Running another heroic isn't the same in WoW, although the 10/25 man raiding is similar but a little less relaxed.

Killing a certain type of mob making you KOS in an area. Watching an NPC literally chase you to the end of the earth meant you had to be careful or a badass. I'm looking forward to trying rift If I ever get my main PC back from the shop.

Ain

[Torrid]

But was their really risk to AE group killing, unless you got cocky or were stupid wasn't the true risk fairly minimal?

Humans aren't computers. We don't and can't play perfectly each and every time. The risk comes with how difficult the strategy or tactic is to execute, and the cost of failure. When you pull trains of 80 mobs -- each of which is harder to kill individually than a WoW outdoor mob -- you ARE going to have deaths; even if you are some of the best players in the game. You factor those deaths into the exp over time cost benefit analysis. The better you play, the larger the trains you can handle and the fewer deaths you incur.

Back when I was trying to AoE mobs in WoW two boxing Coral's priest, the hardest part was simply preventing mobs from leashing in the first place. I topped out at about a dozen mobs. In Cataclysm, I couldn't even grab 5 mobs to AoE at once a lot of the time on my druid solo because they would leash after I ran a few yards out of spell range even with dots ticking.

This is what AoEing looked like in EQ.



If you missed a color stun, your group was dead in 2 seconds. There is also a random factor to it; if too many mobs hit you due to bad resist rolls, they might interrupt an AoE stun, and you wiped. Get a chain of fizzles and wipe. Kill too slowly and you wipe. Also the puller has to not get stuned, blinded, rooted, etc while he gathers a train of dozens of mobs.

Frankly you say I'm in the wrong genre, however the genre has advance since the days of EQ

The only things that have advanced are the graphics and UI. The gameplay has devolved into single player mechanics. WoW is a single player game that just happens to have other people in it. Is Diablo an MMOG? Because I played with more people leveling up in that game than I did in WoW. So much for massively multiplayer.

I can remember the names of players I grouped with 12 years ago in EQ. Can you remember the names of the people you partied with using dungeon finder an hour ago? Did you even so much as say a word to them? At least dungeon finder was an attempt at reducing barriers to grouping. To bad cross server instancing and the ease of the game prevents any community from forming.

there aren't really any game developers left that agree with your draconian philosophies.

Laugh. You never played EQ, and you're so keen to judge it as draconian. You think dying in EQ sucks? Try EVE online. EVE, btw, has more subs than ever and is North America's 3rd most popular MMOG. Hell, Project 1999 is proof people want what I do. Its population increased after the progression server opened because people discovered it while investigating Sony's ez-mode server.

MMOGs just cost too damn much and investors want to take what they think is the safest route. Zynga makes money hand over fist, but what they produce is absolute garbage. Popularity means little.

[Valdis]

Here's a look a the Rift Endgame. I couldn't find it anywhere other then on G4 website but the brief preview I got looked interesting.

[Aindayen]

Valdis where is da link?

Ain

[Wresh]

Laugh. You never played EQ, and you're so keen to judge it as draconian. ...........Hell, Project 1999 is proof people want what I do. Its population increased after the progression server opened because people discovered it while investigating Sony's ez-mode server.

Yes, some people do like to play things such as this....BUT...other gamers do not.

Again, if you want to spend that kind of time repeating/re-spending in game $$ or whatever to get back up what you lost when you die it is fine for you....some do not wish to re-hash the same content 2-3 times or spend 10 billion "isk" to get back what they lost. It is counter-productive to most gamers out there and they would rather push forward into games.

It is all personal preference on how you as the individual wants to play games. You are seeing it one way, and others on here are seeing it another way. Neither is right or wrong...You won't sway the opinion of others on your comments just like we won't sway your thinking from ours.

Just play the game(s) you like to play and have fun doing it! As long as you have fun, who cares what others think?

[Valdis]

Torrid do you need to have so many mobs at once in order to play the game? If the answer is no you are just trying to do something difficult for an ego boost reward and thus being cocky. I have a feeling that many of those types of activities were never really intended by the EQ developers, and it falls into a well we didn't expect them to do that but meh it's not hurting anything.

How has gameplay devolved into single player mechanics, this bit interested me explain to me how EQ mechanics are so different from WoW, Rift, War, Conan... From my understanding all of them use the EQ mechanic set as their starting place. Diablo 2 by the way does not qualify as an MMO as you can only ever play with up to 6 people at a time, since the first M stands for massively I would assume it means more then what you can rig up on a PS2.

Also your question comparing EQ life to the WoW dungeon finder seems odd; are you remembering the names of every odd person you ran across in EQ? I mean I remember the names of tons of players in WoW, let alone the guild I was in, in Warhammer. I mean you get as much community out of EQ or WoW as you put in to it. Maybe the community isn't forced to be as cooperative in WoW but that makes the community you do create all the better for it since your not being forced to work with asshats you can't stand. You can't just say the value of the people you remember in EQ is better then the quality of friendships I have made in WoW. I have dozens of friends from my first real WoW guild still that I do know in real life and have hung out with. I also have plenty of friends in Hoss who I have met or enjoy hanging out with in game.

So your argument that EQ isn't draconian in it's punishment is that EVE is worse? Sure EVE is worse, I loved EVE as a concept and after playing it for a few months I have never felt as isolated and constantly bored as I did in that game. Which really sucks because I have been waiting for a game like EVE for years.

As for P1999 being popular of course it is, even though it's something completely old and everyone knows what to do and how to work it, it is for the moment "new". I mean that's a concept that works well. Even WoW with it's younger age could probably get a ton of people to play on setup similar to that.

I really have no issue with EQ or with you liking it Torrid, my issue is that you seem to think people must be stupid to like anything more then EQ.

[Valdis]

As Ain pointed out I forgot to include the link.....

http://www.g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/pos...g-And-You.html

[Widespreadd Panic]

Quad kiting was quite common with Druids and wizards. Nothing to do with ego, just made leveling a bit faster than the painful killing of 1 mob at a time. On a druid quading was cake; never played a wizard so cant speak for that.

[Valdis]

Well every class has it's niche, I assume quad kiting is simply kiting 4 mobs, and not the aforementioned 80?

[Lonskils]

Quad kiting was quite common with Druids and wizards. Nothing to do with ego, just made leveling a bit faster than the painful killing of 1 mob at a time. On a druid quading was cake; never played a wizard so cant speak for that.

Druids had it a lot easier. Their snare lasted I think 15 minutes? Wizards lasted 3. Was a low level spell so was easily resisted and could snare up to 4 mobs at at a time, but the ranged aoe spells we had were again low level (to combat the practice of quad kiting in the wizard community) They never seemed to mind that druids could do it too and better though! lol

[Lonskils]

Well every class has it's niche, I assume quad kiting is simply kiting 4 mobs, and not the aforementioned 80?

Yeah you could pull 80 in a 6 man group that was made to aoe. Puller, healer, chanter (or two) rest wizards. It was insane and the rush from it was better than any drug I ever had. No pull I ever saw in WoW came even close to it in terms of knowing that one mistake destroyed you so quickly.

Quading Kiting was a real badge of courage for a Wizard at least. What made it so cool was you were doing something that not every wizard could or would do. Not sure if you watch any of those videos of Mages in WoW that showed the Mage soloing AG back in the day. But the difficulty of what the Mages were doing for outweighed anything they were getting from the zone. They did it for the challenge. You can't even try that crap anymore in WoW, sigh.